Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

[howyousawtheworld]

Rumours coming round that 9/11 mastermind Osama Bin Laden is dead.

[Lore]

Obama will announce it soon http://www.whitehouse.gov/live

[dry_pretzels]

WASHINGTON – Osama bin Laden, the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks against the United States, is dead, and the U.S. is in possession of his body, a person familiar with the situation said late Sunday.

President Barack Obama was expected to address the nation on the developments Sunday night.

It was unclear where how bin Laden was killed and how the U.S. captured his body. A senior U.S. counterterrorism official said bin Laden was killed in a ground operation in Pakistan, not by a Predator drone. The official said it happened last week. Officials have long believed bin Laden, the most wanted man in the world, was hiding a mountainous region along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.


source. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden)

[howyousawtheworld]

Killed in Pakistan US air attack. This is big news. Why now? Why 10 years after he went on the run?!

[the_gloaming09]

it's about fucking time... it's taken long enough... I can't wait to see how the republicans spin this against obama (not to say he's a great president)

also I bet that with the announcement of Bin Ladens death that Donald Trump will probably be asking to see his death certificate :lol:

[howyousawtheworld]

It wasn't a random attack he was caught in. It was pinpointed by US intelligence.

[howyousawtheworld]

It wasn't a drone attack according to sources. Special forces led.

[bart]

I heard a few weeks ago, on a wikileaks cable that a nuclear bomb will be detonated in Europe when its annouced he is dead.

[Jony]

interesting.

I don't think it will happen

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Sacré bleu!

[Caroline]

I think they did a DNA test to confirm it's him. HELL YEAH!

[howyousawtheworld]

Perhaps the thousands of sufferers whose loved ones were taken away from them can now go to bed for the first time since that day knowing a big part of justice has been done. God bless them.

[Caroline]

I would have been mad if he died of "natural causes."

[Josh42]

‎10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 (interest and inflation not included) later, we managed to kill one person. Worth it?

[Lore]

It's a good day indeed and finally he's dead, but the thing is, Bin Laden wasn't alone and I don't want to think about the consequences of this, al qaeda will try to revenge of course.

[the_gloaming09]

unfortunately I think this will ultimately lead to a bit of an uprising to radicals.

[Josh42]

Obviously I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it's interesting:

"Nuclear hellstorm"

Another element from the documents cited Khalid Sheikh Mohammed saying that, if Osama Bin Laden was captured or killed by U.S. allies, an Al-Qaeda sleeper cell would detonate a "weapon of mass destruction" in a "secret location" in Europe, and promised it would be "a nuclear hellstorm".[4][17][3] By March 2003, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been waterboarded at least 183 times by the CIA.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_files_leak

[Imke]

As happy as this day makes many, nobody should forget that Al Qaeda is not only on man and they will try to get revenge. No matter the costs.

[Caroline]

I have no doubt that another crazy bastard will take his place.

[Lore]

Obviously I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it's interesting:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_files_leak
I read that too, scary stuff

[Cobalt]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9403/1304311577917.jpg

[nouratan]

you people do realize that he was a CIA and special forces agent during the afgan/soviet war in eighties

and had been trained by them

[Cobalt]

Well he sure had the right idea for a while - hide in a mansion, they'll think you're in a cave

[chuck kottke]

One has to wonder about the whole matter all along. Let's see - Bin Laden :disguise: and Company were allowed to leave Afghanistan at night, head into Pakistan, and the U.S. Government was well aware of this, elements within the Pakistani ISI provided protection and cover (in exchange for what one might wonder?), and that just gets glossed over in the press; and then there were all the false rumors of Bin Laden's death within the cave complexes (that were built with U.S. assistance during the Mujahideen uprising against the Soviets) , and then he falls right off the radar screen for what seems like a decade - hey, wait a minute, it was a decade! I just have to wonder about everything we are told by "credible sources".. Perhaps Bin Laden is dead, but what leaves one pause to wonder is what the heck really went down in all the intervening years. Perhaps Al-Qaeda will try a revenge attack, but that's at least less of a threat since intelligence is so high post 2001 - or at lest, it ought to be!

[Braddock]

Perhaps the thousands of sufferers whose loved ones were taken away from them can now go to bed for the first time since that day knowing a big part of justice has been done. God bless them.

Good news but I don't see why people keep using the term justice.

I would have been mad if he died of "natural causes."

I would rather have seen him die in prison. Now he's dead he's just dead.

It's a good day indeed and finally he's dead, but the thing is, Bin Laden wasn't alone and I don't want to think about the consequences of this, al qaeda will try to revenge of course.

Yup.

As happy as this day makes many, nobody should forget that Al Qaeda is not only on man and they will try to get revenge. No matter the costs.

Yup.








Good news of course, and massive news, but the reaction sure is interesting. Some very unChristian-like responses from public figures who believe in all that bullshit haha. Yet at the same time they feel like his death is justice. Sounds like he got away with it quite easily to me. A decade roaming around with relative freedom (considering what he actually did) and now he's dead. Hardly been punished if you ask me.




If anyone on this board did this:

"Crowds gathered outside the White House in Washington DC, chanting "USA, USA" after the news emerged."

You are simple.

[Josh42]

you people do realize that he was a CIA and special forces agent during the afgan/soviet war in eighties

and had been trained by them

For those who don't know much about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA-Osama_bin_Laden_controversy

[Braddock]

For those who don't know much about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA-Osama_bin_Laden_controversy

I'm sure I quoted that to you about 5 months ago when you were drunk haha.

[Alice]

Good news but I don't see why people keep using the term justice.

I would rather have seen him die in prison. Now he's dead he's just dead.


Yeah, I thought the same when I saw on the news Obama's speech saying justice was finally made. No wonder the USA still have the death penalty. Death = justice in their minds.

[Chloe_Martin]

Its a great day in American history but I think we should be careful with what we all say about this

[Braddock]

Yeah, I thought the same when I saw on the news Obama's speech saying justice was finally made. No wonder the USA still have the death penalty. Death = justice in their minds.

Well considering that not all of America has the death penalty, that throws other things to like. What is the legal ramifications of his death and who sanctioned his death? He is a man 'accused' of engineering 9/11, and somebody who has 'claimed' to have been behind it.

Obama has already said that last week he gave his permission for this to be carried out, but I don't see how without trial he could do this. I'm sure it will be argued that it comes under war-time laws as it is a war on terror, but that's not really a war. It's a vague statement, and one that anybody can make.

The whole thing is a symbolic victory. It isn't justice it is retribution in the eyes of those who lost loved ones to him, and I don't see that as a bad thing. Just don't use the word justice. For a country like America, built on the foundations it is built on such strong principles, to then bring up their children to see this as justice is appalling in my eyes. Very warped logic.

Anyway yeah, a symbolic victory, but Al Queda aren't really a threat any more, in comparison to other organisations, certainly not on the 9/11 scale. He wasn't even the main man any more.

These people are bread from poverty and oppression and so there will be many more to follow him. No option but to keep pushing I guess, but it's all about improving the lives of people world wide, if you want to stop extremism.

[Braddock]

And a final point before I go to sleep. I understand many Muslims around the world distancing themselves from him and saying because of what he did he wasn't a Muslim, but he was. He interpreted things in a different way but that made him no less a Muslim. There are good religious people and bad religious people. He was a bad one. But he was one, and there is no denying it. Religion poisons everything and while I think the poverty and oppression people like bin Laden were brought up surrounded by, though maybe not directly influenced by in all cases, had more of an impact, the religion itself is very easy to manipulate to gain further strength and followers, such is the nature of it's man-made flaws.

[busybeeburns]

didn't take them long did it. Obama should have announced it on 29th April, that would have been fun!

[busybeeburns]

I heard a few weeks ago, on a wikileaks cable that a nuclear bomb will be detonated in Europe when its annouced he is dead.I hope we get to see Judd Trump lift the snooker WC trophy first!

[Cyan Kat]

I think it's good they finally found him but there's no way that extremists just like himself are going to just let this go.

[Braddock]

FBI slow on taking him off the most wanted list.
Come on! I wanna see who replaces him.

[Braddock]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/bin-laden-body-buried-sea
Bin Laden's body buried at sea

The dilemma of what to do with Osama bin Laden's body appears to have been quickly resolved if reports that he has been buried at sea prove correct.

Burying him on land could have led to his grave becoming a centre of contention as well as raising questions about where he should be buried.

"Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world's most wanted terrorist would have been difficult," a US official said, adding: "So the US decided to bury him at sea."

Fears about Bin Laden's burial place turning into a shrine for Islamists were probably unfounded, since the Wahhabi/Salafi tradition rejects such things. Even Saudi kings are buried in unmarked graves.

Senior US officials initially told news agencies that his body would be disposed of in accordance with Islamic tradition, which involves ritual washing, shrouding and burial within 24 hours.

Although the swift burial complies with Islamic custom and should therefore avoid causing any offence in Muslim countries, the apparent haste could lead to claims that the person killed was not really Bin Laden – though the US authorities have taken DNA samples and appear to have no doubts.

The 24-hour rule has not always been applied by the US in the past. For example, the bodies of Uday and Qusay Hussein – sons of the Iraqi dictator – were held for 11 days before being released for burial.

Burial at sea is rare in Islam, though several Muslim websites say it is permitted in certain circumstances.

One is on a long voyage where the body may decay before the ship reaches land. The other is if there is a risk of enemies digging up a land grave and exhuming or mutilating the body – a rule that could plausibly be applied in Bin Laden's case.

For sea burial, according to alislam.org, the body should be lowered into the water "in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet". The website adds: "As far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators."

[Braddock]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-death-pakistan-isi

Osama bin Laden's death will haunt Pakistan

The extraordinary discovery that Osama bin Laden had been living, possibly since 2005, in a luxury compound in a popular summer resort a short drive from the national capital, Islamabad, is an enormous and dangerous embarrassment for Pakistan's government.

Officials from President Asif Ali Zardari downwards have consistently maintained that the al-Qaida chief was not sheltering on Pakistani soil, suggesting instead that the Americans look for him elsewhere, particularly in Afghanistan. The Pakistani stance was part of a wider policy of denial, dating back to the 9/11 attacks, premised on the argument that Pakistan was not the source and springboard for Islamist-inspired terrorism but rather its principal victim.

Islamabad's head-in-the-sand position, as it is seen by some analysts in the west, has led to intensifying friction with Washington in recent months, as the Obama administration struggles to bring an ordered end to its 10-year involvement in Afghanistan. There have been furious rows about unmanned cross-border drone attacks, the arrest in Lahore of a CIA contractor, and Pakistani criticism of US failure to open peace talks with the Taliban.

But all that is as nothing compared with what may now follow. Official denial-ism has also hampered Pakistan's efforts to deal forcefully with its own violent Islamists, the so-called Pakistani Taliban, with which al-Qaida is said to have links. Tens of thousands of people have died in Pakistan as a result of terrorist activity since 9/11, more than all the European and American victims combined.

Given this context, and amid predictions by western commentators of possible terrorist retaliation against US and British targets, it is Pakistanis, along with Afghans, who are most likely to pay a blood price in terms of revenge attacks for the slaying of a man who is seen by some in the Muslim world as an iconic figure.

Tellingly, the Pakistani government was not informed beforehand of the American special forces' raid. The truth is, US officials would simply not have trusted their counterparts in Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's powerful security and spy agency, with such sensitive information.

Extremely pointed questions are now certain to be asked about whether the ISI or its various branches and minions, knew of the existence of the highly unusual, heavily fortified, expensively built compound in Abbottabad, 35 miles north of Islamabad – and of its high-value, low-profile tenant. If they did, why did they not investigate? If they did not, was it because they didn't want to know?

The most damaging (and familiar) suspicion, which is certain to resurface in the coming days, is that elements within the ISI who have maintained links with terrorist groups such as the Haqqani network, did indeed know Bin Laden and his retinue were in Abbottabad, and by keeping silent, were effectively providing him with protection.

The Pakistani government will energetically deny any such suggestion. But given its tenuous control over the ISI, sometimes described as a state within a state, and given its record for candour to date, it will have a hard time being believed.

"When we saw the compound, we were shocked by what we saw: an extraordinarily unique compound," a senior US administration official said. The building, about eight times the size of other nearby houses, sat on a large plot of land that was relatively secluded when it was built in 2005. The villa had comprehensive security measures in place, the official said, including 12- to 18-foot outer walls topped with barbed wire and internal walls. Like some kind of medieval keep, two security gates restricted access. Only a few windows of the three-story building faced outwards, and its terrace had a seven-foot privacy wall, officials said.

Pakistan will now face possibly strong reactions not only from the Americans, but also from home-grown militants – plus possible spillover from Afghanistan, where fighting is in any case expected to intensify as the weather warms.

Renewed trouble could also extend to disputed Kashmir, where repression by Indian security forces of the Muslim population intensified last year and Pakistani Punjabi militant groups have a long history of involvement. Significantly, India was quick to point this out. The home ministry in New Delhi lost no time in saying the discovery of Bin Laden in Pakistan underscored its concern that "terrorists belonging to different organisations find sanctuary in Pakistan".

In Washington and New York as in London and Delhi, relief that the world's most wanted man has been killed will be tempered, and may yet be overtaken by deep anger that he was apparently living not in some freezing mountain cave, as many assumed, but freely, undisturbed and untroubled by the authorities, in comfort in a desirable Pakistani neighbourhood.

[NumbersGirl]

also I bet that with the announcement of Bin Ladens death that Donald Trump will probably be asking to see his death certificate :lol:
win

[howyousawtheworld]

I think Obama uses the word justice in the sense that Bin Laden was stopped in his tracks once and for all whether that meant dead or alive. It is fairly simple. I think we would all have preferred for him to rot in prison but that just was never going to be the case. And clearly despite being on the run he was still a hugely influential figure in the running of Al Qaeda.

And burying him at sea? Conspiracy theorists are bound to at least want some evidence of his dead body.

[Braddock]

I think Obama uses the word justice in the sense that Bin Laden was stopped in his tracks once and for all whether that meant dead or alive. Obviously despite being on the run he was still a hugely influential figure in the running of Al Qaeda.

And burying him at sea? Conspiracy theorists are bound to at least want some evidence of his dead body.

Well that isn't what justice means.

Yeah, conspiracy theorists will have a field day but if it wasn't him/nobody was killed, evidence of that would come out. It'll be him.

[Braddock]

*waits for Mark to find some kind of light hearted Daily Mail story on it that bares little significance aside from novelty*

[howyousawtheworld]

Well that isn't what justice means.

Yeah, conspiracy theorists will have a field day but if it wasn't him/nobody was killed, evidence of that would come out. It'll be him.

Oh come on. You know as well as I do that justice is a subject of many different forms. Whether you agree with some of these forms of justice is a matter of opinion.

[Braddock]

The Daily Mail was one of the newspaper websites to publish the fake picture of Osama bin Laden's body.

S******.
Edit: I forget that word get's blocked. s n i g g e r.

[Braddock]

Oh come on. You know as well as I do that justice is a subject of many different forms. Whether you agree with some of these forms of justice is a matter of opinion.

I don't see how all of the people using the word see it as justice. If they do then they are fools or at best electioneering.

[NumbersGirl]

I first heard the news shortly before 11pm EST. At first I was shocked, then honestly my next reaction was that I was a bit doubtful. Really, how do we know for sure? But then they revealed that there was facial recognition confirmation, and then DNA testing versus one of his sisters' DNA (she died of cancer in Boston, and then the government confiscated her brain solely for the purpose of future DNA testing... interesting). So then I believed it.

While initially this is good news, as other people here have mentioned the concern now is retaliation. Frankly I will be surprised if there isn't any kind of retaliation.

[howyousawtheworld]

I don't see how all of the people using the word see it as justice. If they do then they are fools or at best electioneering.

I don't think diplomats and politicians use the term loosely. Yes it is justice but no it isn't quite closure

[Braddock]

Well I don't see it as justice, but I'll agree to disagree as I can't be bothered.

[Cyan Kat]

Well I don't see it as justice, but I'll agree to disagree as I can't be bothered.
neither do I, thousands of people dead and there's still extremist out there.

[Crests]

Does the fact that I don't really care just mean I'm ignorant?

[busybeeburns]

✓ Saddam Hussein, ✓ Osama Bin Laden, ☐ Justin Bieber (http://twitter.com/MXV339/status/65023282499424256)

:laugh3:

[Braddock]

Nah, Sam Allardyce first.

[Crests]

Is anyone else's newsfeed consisting just of statuses about Bin Laden and complaints about wanting to know who got fired on Celebrity Apprentice or whatever? :|

[Lore]

✓ Saddam Hussein, ✓ Osama Bin Laden, ☐ Justin Bieber (http://twitter.com/MXV339/status/65023282499424256)

:laugh3:

in tweets in spanish chavez was added to that :lol:

[Braddock]

Does the fact that I don't really care just mean I'm ignorant?

Well personally I think that what this could lead to could affect everyone, so it's worth at least looking into it a little, but no, if you aren't interested in it then you aren't interested in it.

I saw more Facebook statuses about the Royal Wedding than I have about this, but me not caring about it didn't make me ignorant. I just didn't care.

[Braddock]

Eyes peeled for 'good day to bury bad news' style press.

[howyousawtheworld]

Eyes peeled for 'good day to bury bad news' style press.

Indeed. Even on Friday I'm sure the government spin machine released a few unsettling figures/stats.

[howyousawtheworld]

Gosh Tony Blair is looking old these days. Just seen him commenting on the news.

[nouratan]

The amazing thing is that you people are talking about justice and we poor people of this country will suffer the result of all the wars.

And Usama and bush were two sides of the same coin

[Cyan Kat]

The amazing thing is that you people are talking about justice and we poor people of this country will suffer the result of all the wars.

And Usama and bush were two sides of the same coin

I know it's not justice and I really feel for the innocent people in all of this.
People just refer to it as being justice for 911 and for other terrorist attacks

[xxKels]

I saw a programme on tv last year discussing how holding the office of President ages one rapidly. Fascinating how one grays so much sooner than they would otherwise !

[the_gloaming09]

And a final point before I go to sleep. I understand many Muslims around the world distancing themselves from him and saying because of what he did he wasn't a Muslim, but he was. He interpreted things in a different way but that made him no less a Muslim. There are good religious people and bad religious people. He was a bad one. But he was one, and there is no denying it. Religion poisons everything and while I think the poverty and oppression people like bin Laden were brought up surrounded by, though maybe not directly influenced by in all cases, had more of an impact, the religion itself is very easy to manipulate to gain further strength and followers, such is the nature of it's man-made flaws.
I agree with what you had to say Mr. Hitchens :lol:

But joking aside I do. I think that Obama put it right when he said that the US getting revenge wasn't an attack on Islam, because it isn't. However Bin Laden was a radical religious freak that used his religion to sway people into joining his crazy group and perform terrible things around the world. It becomes different when it's people using and twisting their religion for this.

Also Greg what you said about people standing out of the White House chanting USA, I hate to say it but I was kind of cringing a bit. Don't get me wrong I love living in this country and wouldn't trade it for any other one, but I've never really understood the whole National Pride thing to that level... I just find it annoying.

I first heard the news shortly before 11pm EST. At first I was shocked, then honestly my next reaction was that I was a bit doubtful. Really, how do we know for sure? But then they revealed that there was facial recognition confirmation, and then DNA testing versus one of his sisters' DNA (she died of cancer in Boston, and then the government confiscated her brain solely for the purpose of future DNA testing... interesting). So then I believed it.

While initially this is good news, as other people here have mentioned the concern now is retaliation. Frankly I will be surprised if there isn't any kind of retaliation.

I also was a little speculative, but I'm sure that if they announced something like this then they probably took the time to make sure they got him. I actually give Obama a lot of props for this in being able to keep it under very tight wraps for such a long time. I mean I remember after 9/11 there used to be a few reports that they knew where he was.

I do though agree about the fear of retaliation. I'm sure that something is going to happen, whether it be an increased amount of violence in countries that the US & it's allies are at war with, or even an attack. I hope that it doesn't happen but I sort of see his radical followers using this as a way to reignite their hatred.

[mc_squared]

Bin Laden is DEAD: Celebrations across America as U.S. special forces shoot dead terror chief in mansion hideaway in Pakistan
By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)
Last updated at 4:10 PM on 2nd May 2011


Comments (1509) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382649/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-US-Navy-Seals-kill-terror-chief-near-Islamabad-Paskistan.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382649/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-US-Navy-Seals-kill-terror-chief-near-Islamabad-Paskistan.html)





Terror chief blasted in head after refusing offer to surrender
Three adults including Bin Laden's 'son' reportedly killed in raid
Compound was yards from Pakistan's 'Sandhurst' military academy
Body buried at sea after Saudi Arabia 'declines to take corpse'
DNA tests 99.9 per cent certain man killed WAS Bin Laden
U.S. embassies on alert over Al Qaeda reprisal attacks
Barack Obama declares 'Justice has been done'
David Cameron says death is 'massive step forward'

Osama Bin Laden has been killed by the U.S. military after a decade-long hunt to avenge the 9/11 attacks, President Barack Obama has revealed.
The 54-year-old leader of Al Qaeda was dramatically killed last night in a firefight with American special forces in a $1million mansion hideout around 60 miles from Pakistan's capital, Islamabad.
Experts used facial recognition techniques to identify the slain terrorist and performed DNA tests,
which are said to be 99.9 per cent certain man killed WAS Bin Laden.
U.S. officials have told broadcaster CNN that Bin Laden's body has already been buried at sea in order to prevent the grave from becoming a shrine for extremists.





http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDF497A00000578-130_634x347.jpg Pit of evil: A king size bed where Bin Laden may have once slept at the secretive compound in Abbottabad. Blood from a gun battle can be seen at the foot of the mattress

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDF3C5000000578-823_306x423.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDEEEAD00000578-87_306x423.jpg


Gun fight: A pool of blood on the floor suggests that one Al Qaeda member was shot close to their bed, while right, a wardrobe pulled open by U.S troops to ensure that none of Bin Laden's clan were hiding in the room






http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDF3C5500000578-101_634x354.jpg Carnage: Blood can be seen on the floor from where Osama was reportedly surrounded by three men, including his son, and a woman who formed a human shield against U.S. troops

In a dramatic statement late last night, President Obama said the U.S. military had recovered Bin Laden's body and confirmed to the world he had finally been killed.
‘Tonight I can report to the American people and the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama Bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda and a terrorist who is responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children,’ he said. ‘Justice has been done’.
Officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours. Saudi Arabia reportedly declined to take the body.
Within minutes of the news breaking, Americans began gathering outside the White House to sing the national anthem and chant: ‘USA! USA!'
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE391C00000578-181_634x443.jpg Deserted: Nestled among trees and in the shadow of Pakistan's mountains, Bin Laden's hideaway stands empty today after a helicopter raid by U.S. troops that killed the terror chief yesterday

Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE3AEC00000578-92_634x382.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE3AEC00000578-92_634x382_popup.jpg) Hideout: A large sheet covers the U.S. helicopter that crashed in the grounds of the compound where Bin Laden lived with his youngest wife and his trusted aides

In a spontaneous outpouring of emotion, thousands started cheering and clapping and waving American flags to show their support.
Large groups of Americans still hurting from the 9/11 attacks also gathered at 'ground zero' in New York to celebrate the news.
Paul Lagrandier, a retired New York firefighter who was part of the rescue for September 11 said he felt mixed emotions.
He told MailOnline: 'I'm saddened for the people who were affected by the tragedy and have to go through all this again.'
When asked what he thought about why it took so long to track down the terrorist, he said: 'I just knew we were working at it and we kept working at it. They stayed the course and accomplished the mission.'


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDF064800000578-937_634x412.jpg Near miss: One of the U.S. helicopters crashed over a wall within the compound after coming under heavy fire from rocket propelled grenades. However, all special forces troops escaped safely


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDEE27900000578-736_306x423.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDDD7C800000578-452_306x423.jpg

Guarded: Pakistani soldiers today patrol the compound where Bin Laden lived and was last night killed, and right, police stop people as they secure the scene

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDEF16A00000578-796_634x473.jpg Clean up: The remains of the U.S. helicopter that crashed during the mission are driven away on a tractor through Abbottabad today




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE1C7D00000578-44_634x378.jpg Hideout: The bin Laden compound was found only a few hundred yards from the military academy known as Pakistan's Sandhurst in the garrison town of Abbottabad, Pakistan


But the terror chief's death will undoubtedly put the Middle East on high alert for reprisal attacks. It will also lead to urgent demands from Washington as to how the most wanted man was allowed to seek refuge in a supposedly allied country as Pakistan.
U.S. military sources revealed tonight that Bin Laden had been taken by surprise by the attack by a small team of U.S. Navy Seals who landed in the grounds of the compound under the cover of nightfall.

He had been living at the luxury home with his youngest wife Amal al-Sadah.

The facility, surrounded by high walls and barbed wire, is in a suburban part of Pakistan, although it is unclear if the country's officials or local residents knew that Bin Laden lived there.

Details of his residence - in a major hub for tourists visiting the region - will cast new questions over Britain's relationship with Pakistan. British aid to the country was last year doubled to £60m.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDECE7300000578-248_634x397.jpg Abbattobad: The remote town in northern Pakistan, named after James Abbott, the British major who founded the town in 1853, sits beneath towering hills

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDEB96800000578-993_634x791.jpg

During an operation in which troops were on the ground for just 40 minutes, they stormed the terror chief's hideaway.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE62EC00000578-374_306x481.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382649-0BDE06C500000578-158_306x481.jpg

Mixed emotions: Grief etched into his face, a father among cheering crowds outside the White House clutches the pictures of his son killed on 9/11, while right, two supporters pain their faces with the colours of the USA

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382649/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-US-Navy-Seals-kill-terror-chief-near-Islamabad-Paskistan.html#ixzz1LD622Ab9

[Violet]

‎10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 (interest and inflation not included) later, we managed to kill one person. Worth it?

Probably not.

Good news but I don't see why people keep using the term justice.

I would rather have seen him die in prison. Now he's dead he's just dead.

Yup.

Yup.

Good news of course, and massive news, but the reaction sure is interesting. Some very unChristian-like responses from public figures who believe in all that bullshit haha. Yet at the same time they feel like his death is justice. Sounds like he got away with it quite easily to me. A decade roaming around with relative freedom (considering what he actually did) and now he's dead. Hardly been punished if you ask me.

If anyone on this board did this:

You are simple.

Well considering that not all of America has the death penalty, that throws other things to like. What is the legal ramifications of his death and who sanctioned his death? He is a man 'accused' of engineering 9/11, and somebody who has 'claimed' to have been behind it.

Obama has already said that last week he gave his permission for this to be carried out, but I don't see how without trial he could do this. I'm sure it will be argued that it comes under war-time laws as it is a war on terror, but that's not really a war. It's a vague statement, and one that anybody can make.

The whole thing is a symbolic victory. It isn't justice it is retribution in the eyes of those who lost loved ones to him, and I don't see that as a bad thing. Just don't use the word justice. For a country like America, built on the foundations it is built on such strong principles, to then bring up their children to see this as justice is appalling in my eyes. Very warped logic.

Anyway yeah, a symbolic victory, but Al Queda aren't really a threat any more, in comparison to other organisations, certainly not on the 9/11 scale. He wasn't even the main man any more.

These people are bread from poverty and oppression and so there will be many more to follow him. No option but to keep pushing I guess, but it's all about improving the lives of people world wide, if you want to stop extremism.

And a final point before I go to sleep. I understand many Muslims around the world distancing themselves from him and saying because of what he did he wasn't a Muslim, but he was. He interpreted things in a different way but that made him no less a Muslim. There are good religious people and bad religious people. He was a bad one. But he was one, and there is no denying it. Religion poisons everything and while I think the poverty and oppression people like bin Laden were brought up surrounded by, though maybe not directly influenced by in all cases, had more of an impact, the religion itself is very easy to manipulate to gain further strength and followers, such is the nature of it's man-made flaws.

Well I don't see it as justice, but I'll agree to disagree as I can't be bothered.

Thank you, Greg. Seriously. Thank you.

Also Greg what you said about people standing out of the White House chanting USA, I hate to say it but I was kind of cringing a bit.


Yes!

[Josh42]

I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here, but...

RPG's flying everywhere, one helicopter crashed, dozens of Osama's personal security guards, and not a single US troop was killed or injured? Doesn't add up.

Also some of the people tweeting from Abbottabad said they didn't see any US troops.

Not sure what any of this means, but it might be something worth thinking about...

[Josh42]

"Umma Name my girlfriends G-Spot "Osama"...Because it took me 10 years to find but once I did I killed that shit!"

[NumbersGirl]

:lol:

:dead:

[mc_squared]

Obama 1 Osama 0 :smug:

[howyousawtheworld]

Allegedly the 'lead' described by Obama came from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was repeatedly subjected to waterboarding methods at Guantanamo Bay and eventually provided the name of Bin Laden's courier according to Wikileaks.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488436/WikiLeaks-Osama-bin-Laden-killed-after-tip-off-from-his-deputy.html

[Josh42]

^Yea fucking right. Just an excuse for the US to use more torture. That guy has been in prison for years, there's not a chance in hell he knew the names of Bin Laden's couriers.

[howyousawtheworld]

^Yea fucking right. Just an excuse for the US to use more torture. That guy has been in prison for years, there's not a chance in hell he knew the names of Bin Laden's couriers.

I would believe it. But I certainly don't think it justifies torture,

[mc_squared]

A life of luxury next door to Pakistan's Sandhurst: So how can military chiefs claim they knew nothing about Bin Laden's whereabouts?



By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)

Last updated at 6:01 PM on 2nd May 2011




Comments (24) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382773/Bin-Laden-What-does-mean-US-Pakistan-relations.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382773/Bin-Laden-What-does-mean-US-Pakistan-relations.html)




MP: 'I'm absolutely flabberghasted that the authorities allowed it or weren't aware of it'
Killing of Bin Laden comes only weeks after Britain gave Pakistan £650million in aid


Snaring Osama bin Laden will give a much-needed boost to the Obama administration but could lead to a real deterioration in relations between Pakistan and the West, observers have suggested.
Though the Muslim-majority state has become one of Washington's key allies in the fight against terrorism, elements within its ISI intelligence agency have long been accused of aiding the Taliban in Afghanistan and showing sympathy for militant Islamism.
Now the revelation that Bin Laden - the most notorious terrorist of modern times - was living in a comfortable mansion only a few hundred yards from the military academy known as Pakistan's Sandhurst raises serious questions about a supposed ally.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382773-0BDF6A2000000578-567_468x342.jpg Cornered: The hideout of Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden in Abbottabad where he was killed in the early hours of Sunday morning


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382773-0BDF848700000578-0_468x356.jpg Operation: Soldiers stand over the debris of a U.S. military helicopter which was destroyed during the raid

The Pakistani authorities were quick to insist that they had no prior knowledge that the world's most wanted man was living in the garrison town of Abbottabad, only a few hundred yards from the academy.
But an MP with strong links to Pakistan said he was 'flabbergasted and shocked' that the Al Qaeda leader could have found a safe haven in a town where thousands of troops are based.
Khalid Mahmood, chair of the parliamentary all-party group on tackling terrorism, said: 'I am absolutely flabbergasted that the authorities either allowed that to continue or weren't aware of it.
'If they weren't aware, it was huge incompetence. There are certainly huge issues to be considered.'
Abbottabad could be compared with a British town such as Aldershot for its dominance by the armed forces, said Mr Mahmood.
'If he had been in the mountains of Peshawar, that might have been acceptable, but in a key town in Pakistan, I am amazed that that has been allowed to happen. How is it that they have never found him there?'
The exact role of Pakistan in shielding Bin Laden is particularly controversial as the country has received so much aid from Britain.
Last month, David Cameron announced a £650million grant to fund schools on a visit to the region.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382773-0BDF3D0600000578-990_468x746.jpg Protest: Pro-Bin Laden supporters from Islamic political party Jamiat Ulma-e-Islam Nazaryati demonstrate in the wake of his death in Quetta, Pakistan

Gareth Price, senior research fellow on the Asia programme at Chatham House, said that if the Pakistani security forces were found to have colluded with Al Qaeda, the repercussions could be devastating for international relations.
'It would effectively take a bad relationship and make it worse,' he said.
'People have so far managed to work around a bad relationship but there must be questions of how bad the relationship can be.
'If it is true that no one knew he (Bin Laden) was there, then maybe things can carry on as they were. The question which will be asked now is who knew about it.'
If it transpires that Bin Laden's presence was more widely known than has previously been suggested, he said relationships with Pakistan could 'break down entirely'.
'It's hard to think that they could carry on working together, if that is the case,' he added.
His views were echoed by Maha Azzam, an expert in Middle East politics and the ideology of Al Qaeda.
'There will now be many questions asked as to whether the Pakistan government knew of Bin Laden's whereabouts.
'There is a lot of work to be done but they have removed a major obstacle so that will be some relief.'
Offering a more positive perspective, she said the removal of such a controversial figure could be a starting point for improved relations between Pakistan and the West.
But she added: 'The U.S. will have to appease the concerns that the Pakistanis may have because the Pakistani public will be very concerned now to see a change in U.S. policy in Pakistan and an end to the drone attacks that have been happening in their country.'

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382773-0BDEA21400000578-194_468x313.jpg Shock news: People buy newspapers reporting the killing of Bin Laden in Karachi, Pakistan

Even after former president Pervez Musharraf signed up to the U.S.-led war on terror in 2001 - taking billions in American military aid in return - suspicions persisted that no real effort was being made to root out extremism in Pakistan.
A report by the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee in March stated: 'Prior to 2001, overt Pakistani support in the form of diplomatic recognition to the former Taliban government was combined with more clandestine backing for proxy terrorist groups in Afghanistan, in many instances created and shored up by the ISI... which continues to drive foreign policy, in spite of the existence of a civilian government.
'Today, Pakistan's border areas with Afghanistan provide ungoverned space from which Al Qaeda and other militant and organised crime groups operate.'
The committee warned last year of 'a lack of uniform and widespread support within the military and ISI for the need to tackle the Afghan insurgency from within Pakistan'.
And Prime Minister David Cameron made clear last year that there were continuing suspicions about Pakistan's activities by saying that the UK would not 'tolerate in any sense the idea that this country is allowed to look both ways and is able in any way to promote the export of terror'.
MI5 chief Jonathan Evans warned last September that around half of all 'priority plots and leads' related to terrorism in the UK were linked to Pakistan - though this was down from 75 per cent thanks to pressure being put on Al Qaeda in the country.
While it may be a long time before the lie of the land becomes clear, one thing is certain - Bin Laden's death, shortly before the 10th anniversary of September 11, has come as a huge relief to many.
John Gearson, reader in terrorism studies and director of the Centre for Defence Studies at King's College, London, said: 'Their inability to get him would have made September 11 very awkward for the Obama administration.
'Now it sends out the opposite signal that America pursued him relentlessly and now they have got him.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382773/Bin-Laden-What-does-mean-US-Pakistan-relations.html#ixzz1LDybh9MJ

[nouratan]

And a final point before I go to sleep. I understand many Muslims around the world distancing themselves from him and saying because of what he did he wasn't a Muslim, but he was. He interpreted things in a different way but that made him no less a Muslim. There are good religious people and bad religious people. He was a bad one. But he was one, and there is no denying it. Religion poisons everything and while I think the poverty and oppression people like bin Laden were brought up surrounded by, though maybe not directly influenced by in all cases, had more of an impact, the religion itself is very easy to manipulate to gain further strength and followers, such is the nature of it's man-made flaws.

I'm muslim and believe me when i say this, most muslims loved him coz they thought he would be able to get JUSTICE for all the muslims killed in Afghanistan, pakistan and iraq.

and only people like me who are afraid to be isolated say he was not a muslim


I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here, but...

RPG's flying everywhere, one helicopter crashed, dozens of Osama's personal security guards, and not a single US troop was killed or injured? Doesn't add up.

Also some of the people tweeting from Abbottabad said they didn't see any US troops.

Not sure what any of this means, but it might be something worth thinking about...

we general public in pakistan believe he was killed somewhere else but as a punishment coz we were not good enough bull dogs we got the blame for keeping him hidden:laugh3:

[Black Rose]

He shouldn't have put his real address when registering for the Playstation Network :P

He either died 4 years ago or he is still alive, with all this "we killed him" as a stunt.

[zempt]

The Obama chest bump. :laugh3:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[TyM218]

Everyone on CNN.com (go read the comments) seems to think this is a conspiracy to get Obama re-elected.

I say, if everyone "knows" its a conspiracy, then Obama won't get re-elected. Not everything is a conspiracy people... What do they need to do to prove it? Deliver the body to your door step? I don't even think that would be enough to convince most of the people who believe this crap.

Here's something cool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

And why is everyone arguing over the meaning of justice? Let's not bring religion into this. In terms of criminal law and accountability, yes, it is justice.

[mc_squared]

Let's not bring religion into this.

Agreed. Extremism has nothing to do with religion. It just uses religion as a convenient "conduit".;)

[a_face_of_light]

It's a good thing hes gone but is it going to put an end to the wars around the world or stop other extremists springing up to take his place?, unfortunatly not.

[mc_squared]

It's a good thing hes gone but is it going to put an end to the wars around the world or stop other extremists springing up to take his place?, unfortunatly not.

There will always be extremists, unfortunately.:(

[Reilly]

It's a good thing hes gone but is it going to put an end to the wars around the world or stop other extremists springing up to take his place?

Yes.

unfortunatly not.

Oh. :blank:

There will always be extremists, unfortunately.:(

Well spotted, I'll add to this and say that I think extremists are bad.

[mc_squared]

Well spotted, I'll add to this and say that I think extremists are bad.

Only bad?:rolleyes:

[Braddock]

Agreed. Extremism has nothing to do with religion. It just uses religion as a convenient "conduit".;)

I disagree, but I'm not getting into it here. I've said all I want in other threads.
I find the concept of religion in all it's forms rather extreme in its very nature.

[Reilly]

Only bad?:rolleyes:

That's another good point, in fact I'll go as far as to say extremism is very bad. :blank:

[Braddock]

I agree with what you had to say Mr. Hitchens :lol:

I bet he's glad he's lasted long enough to see this.

[Reilly]

Greg can I ask for your opinion of extremists? The general feeling is that they are bad. Oh and they will be around forever.

[Braddock]

Greg can I ask for your opinion of extremists? The general feeling is that they are bad. Oh and they will be around forever.

On a scale of one to ten, ten being bad, they are at least a 7.2.
They can survive the sun exploding too, so I wouldn't put it past them to last that long.

[Braddock]

I'm muslim and believe me when i say this, most muslims loved him coz they thought he would be able to get JUSTICE for all the muslims killed in Afghanistan, pakistan and iraq.

and only people like me who are afraid to be isolated say he was not a muslim




we general public in pakistan believe he was killed somewhere else but as a punishment coz we were not good enough bull dogs we got the blame for keeping him hidden:laugh3:

Yes, it is the people who are afraid who say he isn't a Muslim, but that is just because you are distancing your self from him. He was a Muslim. This does not mean it was your fault though, of course. I'm pretty sure nobody is saying that. But to say he wasn't a Muslim just because he interpreted it a different way is just a get out clause. Many Catholics disagree with the Pope's view on things, but they don't claim he isn't a Catholic.

And from what I've seen, whether it's cricket scandals or bin Laden, Pakistan never seem to think they have done anything wrong and always seem to think it's a massive conspiracy against them, and only them and therefore spend a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself. The truth is, it is very hard to pull off such a conspiracy in the 'oppositions' country (if that's how you are viewing yourself) and get away with it, without you being able to see through it and find evidence of it, and we shall see if Pakistan manages it. The world is now watching for them to prove America wrong.

[Braddock]

Thank you, Greg. Seriously. Thank you.


Thank you, for taking the time to read. Sometimes I wonder if people bother haha.

[bjaiken]

I'm not going to go deep into this discussion because these things can go on forever. However, I think people are intellectualizing what is a very natural and emotional response. To me, this is no different than a crazy man entering your house without provocation and shooting your entire family only to go on TV and unabashedly take credit for the entire thing. For many Americans, we knew people who died in one of the plane crashes or jumped out of a burning World Trade Center building to their death. These were our friends and our family - good people who were just living their lives. So while I was not in the streets chanting "USA-USA", I do understand the feelings that many Americans are having right now. I would imagine many of you would have similar feelings if it were your friends or family that were murdered.

[Braddock]

I'm not going to go deep into this discussion because these things can go on forever. However, I think people are intellectualizing what is a very natural and emotional response. To me, this is no different than a crazy man entering your house without provocation and shooting your entire family only to go on TV and unabashedly take credit for the entire thing. For many Americans, we knew people who died in one of the plane crashes or jumped out of a burning World Trade Center building to their death. These were our friends and our family - good people who were just living their lives. So while I was not in the streets chanting "USA-USA", I do understand the feelings that many Americans are having right now. I would imagine many of you would have similar feelings if it were your friends or family that were murdered.

Not disputed.
Nor have I done anywhere in the thread.
In agreement with almost all of it, and not in disagreement (as such) with any of it.

[howyousawtheworld]

I disagree, but I'm not getting into it here. I've said all I want in other threads.
I find the concept of religion in all it's forms rather extreme in its very nature.

I disagree. I don't practice any religion and nor do I want to practice any religion but the problem though is religions tackling the real extremist factions of it. And sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. There is absolutely no harm done though by those practising on a liberal level.

[Braddock]

I disagree.

Belief of such baffling ridiculousness is extreme in my eyes, though of a different level when compared to people with extremist religious views, naturally.
Belief in a God much less so.
But you don't have to be part of a religion to believe in a God, not that I personally do anyway, though I have nothing against people doing so.

[Crests]

^That. And I'm a Christian, but I'm not part of say, an organized religion. I disagree highly with it.

"All body bags are equally tragic, whether americans killed by terrorists or terrorists killed by americans."

[LoryABjerre]

Osama Bin Laden was a time when invited to the White House sorry but that eventually harvest what ? strange is leader Buch. The Texas is the condanation to death and the worst atrocity in human history.
Buch and always says in the name of God. War is open.

sorry but the human rights and national security is very low and foolish to criticize the others nations :\

[Braddock]

I disagree. I don't practice any religion and nor do I want to practice any religion but the problem though is religions tackling the real extremist factions of it. And sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. There is absolutely no harm done though by those practising on a liberal level.

Supporting machines which are inherently sexist, homophobic and infringe on peoples lives to such an extent is absolutely no harm done? Fair enough. But we've been through this.

[Crests]

Supporting machines which are inherently sexist, homophobic and infringe on peoples lives to such an extent is absolutely no harm done? Fair enough. But we've been through this.

I kinda disagree with this statement.

Like for example, It's not inherently homophobic, that's the way people have made it.
So yes, God say, doesn't like it when two people of the same gender have sex. He also doesn't like it when people have it before marriage, or with someone else when they're married, yet none are so condemned by these people as homosexuals. It's all the same, and God loves them all the same. It never says once to treat them the way people who claim to be such followers do, it teaches to love unconditionally. Therefore, it's the peoples' faults and hypocrisy.

[Braddock]

I'm not part of say, an organized religion. I disagree highly with it.

How long have you felt this way, if it's not such a personal thing to ask?

[Crests]

How long have you felt this way, if it's not such a personal thing to ask?

what exactly is it you mean?

[howyousawtheworld]

Belief of such baffling ridiculousness is extreme in my eyes, though of a different level when compared to people with extremist religious views, naturally.
Belief in a God much less so.
But you don't have to be part of a religion to believe in a God, not that I personally do anyway, though I have nothing against people doing so.

"Machines" that spout homophobic ramblings etc etc. Yes it's completely wrong and that's the bad side of religion but unfortunately people haven't moved with the times. These feelings were very common thousands of years back when such scripture was written and such feelings merely influenced such passages (passed off as God's own word of course) which is why it's totally wrong. But that's something that isn't pinpointed clearly by militant religious freaks and militant atheists. I think both sets seem to take such writings as having been written yesterday. Thankfully there are people within religion who do realise that.

What do you think about deism?

[Braddock]

I kinda disagree with this statement.

Like for example, It's not inherently homophobic, that's the way people have made it.
So yes, God say, doesn't like it when two people of the same gender have sex. He also doesn't like it when people have it before marriage, or with someone else when they're married, yet none are so condemned by the people as homosexuals. It's all the same, and God loves them all the same. It never says once to treat them the way people who claim to be such followers do,it teaches to love everyone unconditionally. Therefore, it's the peoples' faults and hypocrisy.

But why would a God not allow practicing homosexuals in humanity, but would in the rest of the animal kingdom. And why would a God care about humans anyway, when you consider everything that has come before us and will come after us? Why does he need some form of moral conscience? And why are humans so vain as to assume any form of connection with a God if there was one? Do you not find that awful? Who are these special people who God talks to and let's them know all these wonderful snippets of information on the rules to live our lives? Why are things so strict when it comes to sex and does a gay man having gay sex really result in him going to hell forever? Wtf?

That'd be what I'd have posted if I was in the relevant thread haha.

[howyousawtheworld]

But why would a God not allow practicing homosexuals in humanity, but would in the rest of the animal kingdom. And why would a God care about humans anyway, when you consider everything that has come before us and will come after us? Why does he need some form of moral conscience? And why are humans so vain as to assume any form of connection with a God if there was one? Do you not find that awful? Who are these special people who God talks to and let's them know all these wonderful snippets of information on the rules to live our lives? Why are things so strict when it comes to sex and does a gay man having gay sex really result in him going to hell forever? Wtf?

That'd be what I'd have posted if I was in the relevant thread haha.

An increasingly small minority of Christians think that way you see. Christian's aren't all religious fanatics from the deep South.

[Crests]

^I don't come across as a fanatic or anything, right? D:

I'm not gonna go into that because these debates never turn out well and this is kinda irrelevant to the thread, but I will say it in no way leads to Hell.

I feel kinda bad for how hard Obama has to try to not upset people or lead to anything or anything haha.

[Reilly]

But why would a God not allow practicing homosexuals in humanity, but would in the rest of the animal kingdom. And why would a God care about humans anyway, when you consider everything that has come before us and will come after us? Why does he need some form of moral conscience? And why are humans so vain as to assume any form of connection with a God if there was one? Do you not find that awful? Who are these special people who God talks to and let's them know all these wonderful snippets of information on the rules to live our lives? Why are things so strict when it comes to sex and does a gay man having gay sex really result in him going to hell forever? Wtf?

You're beginning to sound like the first ever atheist extremist. You are referring to creationists (In terms of Christians for example), a very small sect of that religion, and generally I don't think people who follow the Bible take the words as directly spoken from God, but interpreted to give an idea of what is morality and living a decent life, this does not mean that a person has to follow every rule literally. I especially disagree that people aren't moving on with the times, since the age of Enlightenment and being what we must now consider 'civilised' there's been the beginning of a standard of human rights, leading to womens rights, equality of races and now rights for homosexuals.

[Braddock]

"Machines" that spout homophobic ramblings etc etc. Yes it's completely wrong and that's the bad side of religion but unfortunately people haven't moved with the times. These feelings were very common thousands of years back when such scripture was written and such feelings merely influenced such passages (passed off as God's own word of course) which is why it's totally wrong. But that's something that isn't pinpointed clearly by militant religious freaks and militant atheists. I think both sets seem to take such writings as having been written yesterday. Thankfully there are people within religion who do realise that.

What do you think about deism?

I've posted about this before, minus the Deism bit. Nothing against them. Whilst I can't conceive of a God with any interest in human life, or any form of consciousness, I don't mind other people being able to.

An increasingly small minority of Christians think that way you see. Christian's aren't all religious fanatics from the deep South.

I am aware of this, but religions are not needed. They are outdated, and the only effects they can lead to, that can't be found from within from your own moral compass, aside from a sense of community (which can be generated in other ways) are negative in my eyes. Supporting them only serves to prolong their life-spans and help poison the lives of millions. Whilst there will be other ways for people to do that if religion wasn't there, that does not mean it should be allowed to have a free ride without being challenged, and not have to answer to it's critics. Without religion, not all the problems it creates would be replaced with other ones, and therefore it is worthwhile to continue to pressure it, in an intellectual way.




Move this to another thread.

[Crests]

Had he even been doing anything while he was missing? I admit I don't know much at all about Osama.

[howyousawtheworld]

Had he even been doing anything while he was missing? I admit I don't know much at all about Osama.

Nothing of any influence. Apart from keeping up the spirits and motivation of his fellow extremists by releasing video and audio tapes the last 10 years were spent with him pretty much imprisoning himself trying to escape those hunting him down.

[Reilly]

You kinda have to wonder why he was on the most wanted list in the first place, it's considered a success by the CIA but look at the other 9 people and their crimes compared to 9/11, it's not like you'd spot Osama buying some groceries.

Oddly 9/11 wasn't even mentioned on his bio.

[LoryABjerre]

the men who wrote the Bible, with their interpretations and their feelings, not a power of love called God or Jesus.
and those who wrote the Bible even thought that women not the equals of men just like the Muslim religion thinks of women.
For me, Christianity is dying with Jesus not more Christians to write the Bible and the true Jesus was crucified
by the Jewish not Romans . they had their Gods and Goddesses.

and ban sex, in the christianity and the religions well but never in the bible of God called love and equality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs
is my vision I'm agostic. I seek the truth

[Destrokk]

dahhh
http://i56.tinypic.com/dy2fk5.jpg

I'm not going to pretend like I know so much about it, even if it was mentioned.. or just what's been on the news nonstop, without the weather :blank:
All I know is that that other guy from egypt is going to kill people in some tragic way. My mom said that he's very sangriento.. so I guess he's bloody. He likes blood. So I hope Americans, or the world is prepared.

[Reilly]

the men who wrote the Bible, with their interpretations and their feelings, not a power of love called God or Jesus.
and those who wrote the Bible even thought that women not the equals of men just like the Muslim religion thinks of women.
For me, Christianity is dying with Jesus not more Christians to write the Bible and the true Jesus was crucified
by the Jewish not Romans . they had their Gods and Goddesses.

Lory for the first time I think I understand what you're saying.

Christianity wasn't the original Monotheistic religion but was put forth at a perfect time as a simple religion, forget having 15 deities of sun, earth, fire, milk, it was simplicity. This is why it caught on and became so popular.

The mention of God or Jesus is minimal in the bible unless it directly relates to a story involving them, there are many passages where the words 'God' or 'Jesus' are never mentioned. So basically this made it a very flexible religion in a time of static action (The Roman empire was neither gaining or losing power) and things such as sexism against women or homophobia simply were part of the testaments to appeal to people in power, otherwise it would be quashed, these themes were never meant to be the forefront of the religion, as many creationists believe it is.

[mc_squared]

How Bin Laden's burial at sea denies his fanatical followers a shrine



By Vanessa Allen (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Vanessa+Allen)
Last updated at 1:16 AM on 3rd May 2011


Comments (7) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382922/Osama-Bin-Laden-How-burial-sea-denies-fanatics-shrine.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382922/Osama-Bin-Laden-How-burial-sea-denies-fanatics-shrine.html)





Muslim clerics rage that Osama bin Laden did not receive a proper Islamic burial
The U.S. used multiple means to positively identify bin Laden before burial
Two Pentagon officials say the burial was videotaped and could be released
One report said bin Laden had a 'massive head wound above his left eye where he took bullet, with brains and blood visible'

Osama Bin Laden was given an Islamic burial at sea, U.S. officials revealed, in a move which will rob the terror leader’s followers of a shrine.
The U.S. claimed the sea burial was handled in accordance with Muslim laws which demand the body should be washed, wrapped and buried within 24 hours.
A defence official said Bin Laden’s corpse was taken aboard an American aircraft carrier, the USS Carl Vinson, and buried in the North Arabian Sea, although the exact location was not revealed.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-0-0BDFD5EC00000578-725_634x325.jpg Ship: The USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier took Osama bin Laden's body to the North Arabian sea where they disposed of him following Islamic traditions

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/03/article-0-0BDEC55600000578-71_306x365.jpg Gone but not forgotten: Muslim clerics are predicting revenge attacks against American targets

He said ‘preparations for at-sea burial began at 1.10am EST (6.10am UK time)’ and were completed 50 minutes later.
The body was placed in a white sheet and then a weighted bag, and a military officer read ‘prepared religious remarks’, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker, before the body was eased into the sea.
The decision has exercised conspiracy theorists, who demanded to know why Bin Laden’s body was not preserved and displayed to prove the U.S. had actually killed him, while some clerics dubbed it a deliberate insult to Islam.
The defence official made no comment on claims that Saudi Arabia had refused to accept Saudi-born Bin Laden’s corpse for burial.
The White House is understood to have been warned it would be difficult to find any country willing to accept his remains.
The haste of the burial has been questioned, as the U.S. has not always observed the 24-hour rule for Muslim burials.
In 2003 the bodies of Saddam Hussein’s sons Uday and Qusay were embalmed and held for 11 days before they were released for burial.

More...



MARK ALMOND: Dead but already a martyr: What Bin Laden's death means for the West… and its strained relationship with Islam (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1382716/What-Osama-Bin-Ladens-death-means-West-strained-relationship-Islam.html)
'We got him!' Bin Laden's death sparks wild celebrations at Ground Zero and outside White House (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382652/Osama-Bin-Laden-killed-America-celebrates-death-Al-Qaeda-leader.html)
40 minutes and he was dead: Dramatic reconstruction of how U.S. hit squad took out Bin Laden (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382645/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-How-Navy-Seals-killed-Al-Qaeda-chief-near-Islamabad.html)
'Obama is dead': BBC and U.S. networks make embarrassing error reporting Bin Laden's death (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382778/Obama-dead-BBC-said-basic-error-reporting-bin-Ladens-death.html)
Bin Laden: Is this the coup that rescued Obama’s presidency? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382722/Osama-bin-Laden-assassination-Coup-rescued-Obamas-presidency.html)
Will cutting off the snake's head kill Al Qaeda when Bin Laden was little more than an isolated figurehead? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382760/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-3-commanders-expected-control-Al-Qaeda.html)
Passengers face tougher checks in the wake of Bin Laden's death (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382924/Osama-Bin-Laden-Passengers-face-tougher-checks-wake-terror-leaders-death.html)


The U.S. is also thought to have been anxious to avoid burying the corpse on land over fears the grave would become a rallying point for militants, even if left unmarked.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-0-0BDDF43100000578-740_634x367.jpg
Speech: President Obama said bin Laden was buried in accordance with Islamic tradition but Muslims are claiming they did not do this

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-1382828-0BDFFF7600000578-749_634x446.jpg Burial place: Osama bin Laden's body was taken out to sea and dumped in the North Arabian Sea from the deck of the USS Carl Vinson officials have confirmed


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/02/article-0-0BDF6A2000000578-587_634x319.jpg Scene: Several methods were said to have been used to identify bin Laden after he was shot during a raid at this hideout in Abbottabad


ISLAMIC BURIAL TRADITION

Funerals in Islam follow specific rites procedures.

Sharia law (Islamic religious law) calls for burial of the body which includes a ritual where the body is bathed and shrouded followed by salah (prayer).

Cremation of the body is forbidden as most burials occur in a grave with the head facing Mecca.
The body should be lowered into the water, 'in a vessel of clay or a weight tied to its feet', and as far as possible, it should 'not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by sea predators'.

Tradition dictates that the body is washed by Muslim men and a funeral prayer is said, then it is buried as soon as possible, usually within 24 hours.

The body is wrapped in a shroud of white cloth and the face is moved toward mecca. The remains are always buried in the earth.

Similar to the orthodox Jewish tradition, bodies cannot be embalmed or in any way preserved and the coffin, if used, must be wooden.


Islamic teachings say burials such as Bin Laden’s are permissible if the person has died while travelling at sea and they are too far from land to permit a burial.
But Bin Laden died on land and should have been buried with his head pointed towards Mecca, clerics said.
Radical preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed, who is banned from returning to Britain, said: ‘The Americans want to humiliate Muslims through this burial.’
Dubai’s highest official of religious law, grand mufti Mohammed al-Qubaisi, said: ‘Sea burials are permissible for Muslims in extraordinary circumstances. This is not one of them.
‘They [the U.S.] can say they buried him at sea, but they cannot say they did it according to Islam.
‘If the family does not want him, it’s really simple in Islam – you dig up a grave anywhere, even on a remote island, you say the prayers and that’s it.’
Islamic scholar Abdul Sattar al-Janabi, who preaches in Baghdad, added: ‘What was done by the Americans is forbidden by Islam and might provoke some Muslims.
‘It is not acceptable and it is almost a crime to throw the body of a Muslim man into the sea.’
But Mohammed Qudah, a professor of Islamic law at the University of Jordan, suggested burial at sea was not forbidden.
He said: ‘The land and the sea belong to God, who is able to protect and raise the dead at the end of times for Judgment Day.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382922/Osama-Bin-Laden-How-burial-sea-denies-fanatics-shrine.html#ixzz1LFRMDfHI

[The Sleeping Sun]

justice at last..... :cry:

[the_gloaming09]

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists. I'm not saying that we attack them or whatever but I say cut funding to them since apparently we are still giving them billions of dollars.



Also from what I've heard they used waterboarding that helped to get the whereabouts of Bin Laden. I think that this also opens the topic again of torture. I have mixed feelings about it. I think that of course people have their rights but if they are clearly part of a terrorist organization planning to attack and kill innocent people then I feel it should be used in order to prevent that from happening.

[howyousawtheworld]

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists. I'm not saying that we attack them or whatever but I say cut funding to them since apparently we are still giving them billions of dollars.



Also from what I've heard they used waterboarding that helped to get the whereabouts of Bin Laden. I think that this also opens the topic again of torture. I have mixed feelings about it. I think that of course people have their rights but if they are clearly part of a terrorist organization planning to attack and kill innocent people then I feel it should be used in order to prevent that from happening.


I agree. Pakistan have a lot to answer for. A senior NATO official claimed last year that Osama Bin Laden was living in Northern Pakistan in relative luxury protected by the Pakistani intelligence which Pakistan denied. He was right.
From October 2010.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8070836/Osama-bin-Laden-living-comfortably-in-Pakistan.html

[the_gloaming09]

^you mean Osama right? :lol:

[howyousawtheworld]

^you mean Osama right? :lol:

:laugh3: That would be a story! First time I've tripped over the two names today! Corrected!

[the_gloaming09]

:lol:


that's alright... the names are really similar

[howyousawtheworld]

:lol:


that's alright... the names are really similar

I've seen too many Obama 1, Osama 0 posters on the news today! But I don't really get the whole jubilation. Bin Laden's killing is one thing but those who lost their loved ones because of him will never get them back.

[the_gloaming09]

I agree. I mean last night I saw people chanting "USA USA" over and over. I mean it's good that the fucker is dead, but It annoys me with people that act that way. I guess mainly because I've never fully understood national pride. It's good that a big terrorist leader is out of the picture but at the same time the threat is still out there.

[Juanma]

‎10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 (interest and inflation not included) later, we managed to kill one person. Worth it?

not at all

[Braddock]

You're beginning to sound like the first ever atheist extremist. You are referring to creationists (In terms of Christians for example), a very small sect of that religion, and generally I don't think people who follow the Bible take the words as directly spoken from God, but interpreted to give an idea of what is morality and living a decent life, this does not mean that a person has to follow every rule literally. I especially disagree that people aren't moving on with the times, since the age of Enlightenment and being what we must now consider 'civilised' there's been the beginning of a standard of human rights, leading to womens rights, equality of races and now rights for homosexuals.

But I point out those extreme circumstances because in so many cases, those people are assisted directly or indirectly by enabling moderate or fringe followers. For example in the Catholic church, much of the money generated from it's followers goes to such negative effects, even in the most recent times. Whether it has been towards preventing condom use (which has only this decade been informally backtracked on), preying on the uneducated and poverty stricken around the world, instead of trying to help them through their struggles, like the equivalent of a lawyer chasing an ambulance except also getting in the way of the paramedics. It isn't just Catholicism of course, it goes across all the major religions. It's a blueprint telling people how to live their lives (but in forceful ways and with great fear of punishment included), and the most modern 'popular' religions, such as Mormonism and Scientology, come under a lot of criticism because of some of their less generally accepted beliefs, yet they aren't any more ridiculous than from other religions. It is simply that it has had time to be ingrained into society that some of the major religions get such an easy ride (and whilst they are often criticised I would say it is fair that generally speaking, they get a very easy ride for many of the atrocities at their feet).

Islam, in itself a copy of Christianity in many ways (which has been mentioned, I think in the quote I have quoted below, is in itself nowhere near the first of it's type and was copied in many parts itself), has it's own dogmas, which I think are far more widespread than they are than in Christianity, which does not have the same hold over it's followers as it used to. But something that does not allow their prophet to appear in a cartoon on fear of death, something that certainly does not allow homosexuals almost entirely throughout it's followers, something which forces many who aen't even part of the religion into self censorship, just isn't acceptable in my eyes. I also do not believe from the female Muslim's I have met are viewed as equal to their male counterparts, and this is in a supposedly progressive society. The world has a long way to go to embrace equality, but I see Islam, generally speaking, to be behind most other religions in terms of general living and family life. That is my opinion. I have a lot more learning to do on the subject and will continue to meet people involved in the religion, but at the time of typing, this is how I view it.

And just because things happened in the past it does not devalue the amount of trauma it has caused. It's quite insulting to pass it off as 'another time' since even some of the most senior religious figures cling on to the oppressive pasts of their religions. If people don't believe in those things then they should perhaps move to a more personal or spiritual belief system, in which they don't enter in to the support of such a machine (yes, I'll keep using that word), by all means following any holy book they wish providing it doesn't infringe on other peoples freedoms. But once you get a mass of people, even believing different things, supporting one machine, it's so easy to be used in such negative ways, when many of the people don't even need to be entering into such a thing.

If this was some other organisaton which said such things then it would be lambasted. Just because it is a religion it does not mean that it should not have to face such criticism. I would never do anything negative towards a pious person who does no harm to others (I wouldn't even do anything negative towards somebody who does infringe on others as I am certainly not the violent type, I'd simply pass it on to somebody else in authority to deal with), but as soon as they start doing that I think they should justify exactly what they do. I debate with pious people all the time and I am friends with many, I put forward my points and if they are still comfortable in their beliefs then fair enough, I leave it. If they are debating with me I shall carry on putting forward my beliefs however, and if they get offended then that is their own problem and they can deal with that in whatever way they will, once again as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples freedoms. But I have never said somebody can't be religious and I don't actively look to disrupt people's religions, aside from through discussions and attempting to get people to look into exactly what they are supporting, which I think they should be doing anyway.

Lory for the first time I think I understand what you're saying.

Christianity wasn't the original Monotheistic religion but was put forth at a perfect time as a simple religion, forget having 15 deities of sun, earth, fire, milk, it was simplicity. This is why it caught on and became so popular.

The mention of God or Jesus is minimal in the bible unless it directly relates to a story involving them, there are many passages where the words 'God' or 'Jesus' are never mentioned. So basically this made it a very flexible religion in a time of static action (The Roman empire was neither gaining or losing power) and things such as sexism against women or homophobia simply were part of the testaments to appeal to people in power, otherwise it would be quashed, these themes were never meant to be the forefront of the religion, as many creationists believe it is.

Simply saying let's keep following these books but ignore certain underlying themes and passages isn't good enough in my eyes. If it is out of date and out of touch then surely an update is required at the very least (and I don't mean a Joseph Smith style one). All that the holy books can offer (other than eternal life) can be found in other ways, so pursuing the case of trying to get people to consider this and also pointing out many of the negatives of religion, even in it's more marginalised forms is not extreme atheism in my eyes, it is just trying to have a positive impact, because at the end of the day, I believe organised religion has so much to answer for.

[nouratan]

He shouldn't have put his real address when registering for the Playstation Network :P

He either died 4 years ago or he is still alive, with all this "we killed him" as a stunt.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAAA
fact damn sony

a few years ago media in middle east and pakistan reported abt his death but Americans didn't issue a statement
it was just better for Obama to announce it so near 2012 elections

Yes, it is the people who are afraid who say he isn't a Muslim, but that is just because you are distancing your self from him. He was a Muslim. This does not mean it was your fault though, of course. I'm pretty sure nobody is saying that. But to say he wasn't a Muslim just because he interpreted it a different way is just a get out clause. Many Catholics disagree with the Pope's view on things, but they don't claim he isn't a Catholic.

And from what I've seen, whether it's cricket scandals or bin Laden, Pakistan never seem to think they have done anything wrong and always seem to think it's a massive conspiracy against them, and only them and therefore spend a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself. The truth is, it is very hard to pull off such a conspiracy in the 'oppositions' country (if that's how you are viewing yourself) and get away with it, without you being able to see through it and find evidence of it, and we shall see if Pakistan manages it. The world is now watching for them to prove America wrong.

:lol: we Pakistani's do love scandals and conspiracy theories
and unlike you people we don't trust our government, army or any world media
i still think this was a way of America shutting us up
NATO supplies go from pakistan and from last few weeks opposition leaders along with the students from around the country were blocking the route
and the youth of our country was pissed off on our stupid government agreeing with the drone attacks

only 4000 people died in 9/11 but more then 80,000 pakistanis have died in this war of terror(since 2005)

and no before this war started we never had any problem with suicide bombers

we have suffered more then any1 and now people expect us to be friendly towards a country who caused all this chaos

Belief of such baffling ridiculousness is extreme in my eyes, though of a different level when compared to people with extremist religious views, naturally.
Belief in a God much less so.
But you don't have to be part of a religion to believe in a God, not that I personally do anyway, though I have nothing against people doing so.

you're anti religion but do you realize that u follow it too


"All body bags are equally tragic, whether americans killed by terrorists or terrorists killed by americans."

are the innocent people murdered by American and NATO troops in all these war zones terrorists

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists.

1. we don't need to answer to any1
2. we can't fight terrorism we can help people stuck in this by educating them and helping them find themselves

isn't it amazing that most rebels have child soldiers fighting their war

[Braddock]

Before I respond to the above, I'll just point out I made a few edits to my above post to make it clearer as I didn't read through before posting.

[Braddock]

:lol: we Pakistani's do love scandals and conspiracy theories
and unlike you people we don't trust our government, army or any world media
i still think this was a way of America shutting us up


To suggest I trust my government is not true, though on this case I am willing to at least entertain their assertions until proven wrong by some clear evidence. I'm not the type to simply dispel something, or say it as fact without offering an explanation for it which is based on reason and logic, rather than childish outbursts.

we have suffered more then any1 and now people expect us to be friendly towards a country who caused all this chaos

No, I'm quite sure people just expect you (as in Pakistan, i don't expect you to personally go and hunt down these people) to do the right thing, especially when you offer such wise teachings on morality through some of the dogmas you follow.


you're anti religion but do you realize that u follow it too

Do continue, I fear you are misguided.


1. we don't need to answer to any1
2. we can't fight terrorism

1. If you have indeed not done enough to assist in the capture of bin Laden then yes you do, even if it is simply to clear your name.
2. Yes, you can, as a nation.

[nouratan]

To suggest I trust my government is not true, though on this case I am willing to at least entertain their assertions until proven wrong by some clear evidence. I'm not the type to simply dispel something, or say it as fact without offering an explanation for it which is based on reason and logic, rather than childish outbursts.

so did you get any evidence
until i see a picture i won't believe they've killed him


No, I'm quite sure people just expect you (as in Pakistan, i don't expect you to personally go and hunt down these people) to do the right thing, especially when you offer such wise teachings on morality through some of the dogmas you follow.

you do realize our as in pakistani army not my own is fighting a war they know they won't win just to make the west happy

from last 6 years we as a nation have realized that terrorism and extremism has grown coz we made ppl choose sides


Do continue, I fear you are misguided.

religion is abt having a belief
i believe there is something who created us and you believe in no supreme power
so ironically you follow a religion



1. If you have indeed not done enough to assist in the capture of bin Laden then yes you do, even if it is simply to clear your name.
2. Yes, you can, as a nation.

no we don't need to and by the way the second we was as in the world

[Braddock]

so did you get any evidence
until i see a picture i won't believe they've killed him




you do realize our as in pakistani army not my own is fighting a war they know they won't win just to make the west happy

from last 6 years we as a nation have realized that terrorism and extremism has grown coz we made ppl choose sides




religion is abt having a belief
i believe there is something who created us and you believe in no supreme power
so ironically you follow a religion





no we don't need to and by the way the second we was as in the world

I am waiting to be proved wrong. I am not saying it is certain that he is dead, but it certainly appears so. Until there is proof he is alive, or died in another way to what is being said, then how can you 'believe it is American's trying to shut up Pakistan'?

Extremism is not a new thing, it has simply moved away from certain areas and now it is becoming more apparent to you. That does not mean you pass the book and don't get involved. But as you said, you are making some efforts. It is a winnable war.

What I believe in is not a set of dogmas which tell me what to do, and also influence those around me in a specific way. I don't force it on other people, I do not have to offer myself to anybody, I just live my life. I believe in many things, like believe that chocolate is tasty, but that does not make it a religion. I think you should look up religion, and also humanism, and see how they differ.

Yes, we, or the world, can fight terrorism.

[Braddock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13268517

Pakistan admits Bin Laden failure

Pakistan's main intelligence agency, the ISI, has said it is embarrassed by its failures on al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

An ISI official told the BBC the compound in Abbottabad where Bin Laden was killed by US forces on Sunday had been raided in 2003.

But the compound "was not on our radar" since then, the official said.

President Asif Ali Zardari denied the killing suggested Pakistan was failing in its efforts to tackle terrorism.

Bin Laden, 54, was the founder and leader of al-Qaeda. He is believed to have ordered the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001, as well as a number of other deadly bombings.

The ISI official told the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones in Islamabad that the compound in Abbottabad, just 100km (62 miles) from the capital, was raided when under construction in 2003.

It was believed an al-Qaeda operative, Abu Faraj al-Libi, was there.

But since then "the compound was not on our radar, it is an embarrassment for the ISI", the official said. "We're good, but we're not God."

The compound is just a few hundred metres from the Pakistan Military Academy - the country's equivalent of West Point or Sandhurst.

The ISI official also gave new or differing accounts of some of the events of Sunday's raid. They included:

There were 17-18 people in the compound at the time of the attack
The Americans took away one person still alive, possibly a Bin Laden son
Those who survived the attack included a wife, a daughter and eight to nine other children, not apparently Bin Laden's; all had their hands tied by the Americans
The surviving Yemeni wife said they had moved to the compound a few months ago
Bin Laden's daughter, aged 12 or 13, saw her father shot


The official said it was thought the Americans wanted to take away the surviving women and children but had to abandon the plan when one of the helicopters malfunctioned.

The helicopter was destroyed by the special forces unit.

The US has not commented on anyone it captured or had planned to capture, other than saying it had taken Bin Laden's body.

The ISI official said the organisation had recovered some documents from the compound.

The CIA is already said to be going through a large number of hard drives and storage devices seized in the raid.

White House counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan said there had been concern Pakistani forces would deploy to counter the US Navy Seal team conducting the raid but it had avoided any confrontation.

The ISI official said: "We were totally caught by surprise. They were in and out before we could react."

Our correspondent says residents near the compound in Abbottabad reported that Pakistani soldiers had asked them to switch off their lights an hour before the attack, but the ISI official said this was not true and that it had no advanced knowledge of the raid.

Earlier, in an opinion piece in the Washington Post, Mr Zardari admitted Bin Laden "was not anywhere we had anticipated he would be".

But he said Pakistan had "never been and never will be the hotbed of fanaticism that is often described by the media".

"Such baseless speculation may make exciting cable news, but it doesn't reflect fact," he said.

"Pakistan had as much reason to despise al-Qaeda as any nation. The war on terrorism is as much Pakistan's war as it is America's."

Mr Brennan had said it was "inconceivable that Bin Laden did not have a support system" in Pakistan.

Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir tried to draw a line under the matter, saying: "Who did what is beside the point... This issue of Osama Bin Laden is history."

Bin Laden was America's most wanted man but had eluded capture for more than a decade.

US officials say that after DNA tests they are "99.9%" sure that the man they shot and killed and later buried at sea was Bin Laden.

US President Barack Obama watched the entire operation in real time in the White House with his national security team.

Mr Brennan said: "The minutes passed like days."

CIA director Leon Panetta narrated via a video screen from a separate Washington office, with Bin Laden given the code name Geronimo.

Mr Panetta's narration lasted several minutes. "They've reached the target... We have a visual on Geronimo... Geronimo EKIA (enemy killed in action)."

Mr Obama said: "We got him."

Bin Laden, his son Khalid, trusted personal courier Sheikh Abu Ahmed and the courier's brother were all killed, along with an unidentified woman.

Bin Laden was shot above his left eye, blowing away a section of his skull, and was also shot in the chest.

The BBC's Andrew North in Washington says the White House is still discussing whether to release a video that was made of Bin Laden's burial from an aircraft carrier in the Arabian Sea, which some Islamic scholars have said did not conform with tradition.

Our correspondent says many people will want proof that Bin Laden is dead but the White House will be concerned about the reaction if the video, and still photographs of the body, are released.

[Braddock]

Double post

[mc_squared]

Wow! Back on topic! Amazing!:stunned:

[Crests]

Wow! Back on topic! Amazing!

Not now that you've said this.

One of my teachers thinks he's still alive, welp.

[Braddock]

A thread can survive the odd furore away from the original content. Especially when after most posts I made off topic I requested them to be moved. Threads are like living organisms, but if they stray too far off topic, or stay off topic too long, then things have to be done, providing it's a serious topic to begin with.

Is that OK Mark?
Nice contribution btw.

[Cobalt]

That'll be very fucking embarrassing for Pakistan if it is true, and USA sure won't be happy with them for a while.

[Braddock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13259869

I found this interesting.
(Make sure it's clicked on 'historians view' in the toolbar. It should be automatically)
Comments interesting too.

[bart]

bet bin laden regrets using his iphone app to find his current location!

[the_gloaming09]

1. we don't need to answer to any1
2. we can't fight terrorism we can help people stuck in this by educating them and helping them find themselves

isn't it amazing that most rebels have child soldiers fighting their war

They do need to answer some questions. Yes it was that he was in the country, which on regular terms we know he's been for a while. But at the same time doesn't it sound extremely fishy that Bin Laden was found pretty much right next to a military compound, and also was found in a house that was just shy of being considered a military fortress (the thickness of the walls and barbed wire). I really doubt that they had no possible idea that he was there.

You can fight terrorism, but I agree that you need to educate people and let them know that what they're doing is wrong (in killing innocent lives over a bunch of man made stories).



not to get back off topic (though it still kind of is on topic), but I sometimes find it extremely amazing how some people can be so convinced that things in those books are 100% factual, and they devote their lives to it. I don't have a problem with religion... I could care less in knowing what you believe... but once it starts affecting other people or people take the texts to do wicked things, or priests are not jailed for child molestation but moved, or peoples beliefs are forced on others, that's when I have a problem with it

[Braddock]

a few years ago media in middle east and pakistan reported abt his death but Americans didn't issue a statement
it was just better for Obama to announce it so near 2012 elections

...

They appear to have gone back on this today, rather bizarrely.

[nouratan]

I am waiting to be proved wrong. I am not saying it is certain that he is dead, but it certainly appears so. Until there is proof he is alive, or died in another way to what is being said, then how can you 'believe it is American's trying to shut up Pakistan'?

Extremism is not a new thing, it has simply moved away from certain areas and now it is becoming more apparent to you. That does not mean you pass the book and don't get involved. But as you said, you are making some efforts. It is a winnable war.

What I believe in is not a set of dogmas which tell me what to do, and also influence those around me in a specific way. I don't force it on other people, I do not have to offer myself to anybody, I just live my life. I believe in many things, like believe that chocolate is tasty, but that does not make it a religion. I think you should look up religion, and also humanism, and see how they differ.

you believe in humanism and you want people killed without any chance given to prove themselves
thats like amputating a leg without knowing why it ached

these people don't need drone attacks and bombs to change, the wars have just multiplied the numbers instead of decreasing them, they need education, food and safety

did the talks solve the issue of northern Ireland england usually is still on red alert when something grand is happening like the wedding a few days ago. they are still afraid IRA will strike again


A thread can survive the odd furore away from the original content. Especially when after most posts I made off topic I requested them to be moved. Threads are like living organisms, but if they stray too far off topic, or stay off topic too long, then things have to be done, providing it's a serious topic to begin with.

Is that OK Mark?
Nice contribution btw.

+1
i agree its good to discuss these thing so we get to know the other sides story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13259869

I found this interesting.
(Make sure it's clicked on 'historians view' in the toolbar. It should be automatically)
Comments interesting too.

i'm just reading that

They do need to answer some questions. Yes it was that he was in the country, which on regular terms we know he's been for a while. But at the same time doesn't it sound extremely fishy that Bin Laden was found pretty much right next to a military compound, and also was found in a house that was just shy of being considered a military fortress (the thickness of the walls and barbed wire). I really doubt that they had no possible idea that he was there.

You can fight terrorism, but I agree that you need to educate people and let them know that what they're doing is wrong (in killing innocent lives over a bunch of man made stories).



not to get back off topic (though it still kind of is on topic), but I sometimes find it extremely amazing how some people can be so convinced that things in those books are 100% factual, and they devote their lives to it. I don't have a problem with religion... I could care less in knowing what you believe... but once it starts affecting other people or people take the texts to do wicked things, or priests are not jailed for child molestation but moved, or peoples beliefs are forced on others, that's when I have a problem with it

he was never an ISI agent he had been CIA agent so ask your agencies why they armed him like they did

and btw who is asking you people to start following any religion
leave the people who do believe in their books and their god and stop forcing your opinions on them

...

They appear to have gone back on this today, rather bizarrely.

coz the gods of they world have spoken :laugh3:

[the_gloaming09]

he was never an ISI agent he had been CIA agent so ask your agencies why they armed him like they did

and btw who is asking you people to start following any religion
leave the people who do believe in their books and their god and stop forcing your opinions on them




I'm not saying that he was a ISI member. He was given money from the US and the reason being that he was helping to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80's. Of course though it's always the bad guys that we help out... not saying that's right.

What I'm saying is that it's very strange and unbelievable that he was found so close to the capitol, right next to a military academy (which in any country would have high security). So it sounds a bit ridiculous that no one had any idea who was there. Of course I can understand since Pakistan is divided on Osama bin Laden and the US as some people are in support and opposition.


No one is asking me to join thankfully. I'm saying that there are a lot of areas of the world that you are severely persecuted or even killed just for being a different religion. I think it's ridiculous! like I said before I could care less what people believe in. But when it comes to people being persecuted or killed over their beliefs, that's when it's wrong.

What I'm also saying is that Bin Laden and his followers were radical religious fanatics that took their texts to an extreme and used that religion to kill those people. Afterall they felt that what they were doing was acceptable by God and they would be rewarded by those virgins in heaven.

[Braddock]

you believe in humanism and you want people killed without any chance given to prove themselves
thats like amputating a leg without knowing why it ached

these people don't need drone attacks and bombs to change, the wars have just multiplied the numbers instead of decreasing them, they need education, food and safety

did the talks solve the issue of northern Ireland england usually is still on red alert when something grand is happening like the wedding a few days ago. they are still afraid IRA will strike again




+1
i agree its good to discuss these thing so we get to know the other sides story



i'm just reading that



coz the gods of they world have spoken :laugh3:

I don't want people killed, I said myself throughout the first few pages of this thread that this was not justice. I think it's insulting to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11, and indeed all over the world due to Al Qaeda, to call it justice. Some will see it as justice, but that is for them to say of their own personal opinion.

America were after bin Laden and with good reason. They ended up killing him. I'm not condoning that and haven't done at all. There may have been good reason for it, there may not have been. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to know. What I do know is that efforts had to be made to get to him, regardless of whether he was a threat or not. Like the nazi war criminals still hunted down. You cannot let these people get away with things, and you have to try and get to them and bring proper justice, rather than letting them get away with it. Like I said, whether or not they could have kept him alive we won't know, and there will be many theories that go around, but it would appear that Pakistan did not do enough to even allow any form of justice to ever take place, continually telling people that he was not in your country, was in Afghanistan, or was even dead (as you have said, though i'm not aware of it, though i believe you). Fair enough if this is what they believed, but with what has happened these last two days you have to admit this is embarrassing for Pakistan? And if they took your defence as their answer - that attempting to get to these people is not the way to fight terrorism - then it will look even worse. Of course education is the key, but it has to go both ways. When people do what bin Laden has done, or at least claimed to have done, then you cannot just ignore it.

If you look into the situation with the IRA things have improved massively, and a mixture of punishment for the people involved and education has worked very well, so i don't see how this backs up your point of harbouring terrorists. At the very best your government just looks incredibly foolish.


With the last bit are you saying that they are bowing to what America has said, even though they know it is lies? They are prepared to look like absolute fools, just to please an American conspiracy? That's one of the more ridiculous claims you have made and even if true, an even sadder account of the country. They should work on truth and not support America if that was the case. If they had evidence America would not bomb the hell out of you, it would be too scared as it has its own rivals.

[the_gloaming09]

More interesting news that has come out is that they found out about Bin Ladens whereabouts because I guess the government waterboarded a terrorist, who gave the name and I guess who Bin Laden's courier was which led to knowing where he was.

So I guess it brings up another interesting topic in terms of torture. I mean yes people have rights, but if you know for a fact that someone is a terrorist and willing to kill people, isn't it dare I say acceptable if it can save more lives?

[Braddock]

I'm against it.

It appears to have worked in this specific case, if that is correct (as it is believed to be) but we do not know how many other people have received this treatment in the hunt for him who did not deserve it. After all, they are not going to come out and say we tortured this guy, but we didn't find him... better look next time :awesome:

It is methods to extract a confession, even if there is no confession to make. There are other ways of doing it than that.

[the_gloaming09]

I'm against it.

It appears to have worked in this specific case, if that is correct (as it is believed to be) but we do not know how many other people have received this treatment in the hunt for him who did not deserve it. After all, they are not going to come out and say we tortured this guy, but we didn't find him... better look next time :awesome:

It is methods to extract a confession, even if there is no confession to make. There are other ways of doing it than that.
For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world, would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?


However if that's the case it's going to make things difficult to define what is acceptable or not. I think that if you have absolute proof that someone knows information then go for it. Like for example what was done with this Bin Laden raid. They knew about this starting in August, but took the time to make sure that they were completely correct before making a move.

I do though see what you mean in that I'm sure there have been many people that have been tortured that didn't deserve it. If anything I guess I feel it should be a last resort.

[Imke]

This topic might even be worth its own thread.
Personally, I'm against any kind of physical torture. It degrades humans to the lowest level possible and I find it almost disgusting that the United States, a nation that claims to be progressive and just, is still using it to such an extent.

For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world, would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?

I see your point and the information gathered through torture might or might not save lives, but I personally think that there are always different ways.

[nouratan]

I don't want people killed, I said myself throughout the first few pages of this thread that this was not justice. I think it's insulting to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11, and indeed all over the world due to Al Qaeda, to call it justice. Some will see it as justice, but that is for them to say of their own personal opinion.

America were after bin Laden and with good reason. They ended up killing him. I'm not condoning that and haven't done at all. There may have been good reason for it, there may not have been. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to know. What I do know is that efforts had to be made to get to him, regardless of whether he was a threat or not. Like the nazi war criminals still hunted down. You cannot let these people get away with things, and you have to try and get to them and bring proper justice, rather than letting them get away with it. Like I said, whether or not they could have kept him alive we won't know, and there will be many theories that go around, but it would appear that Pakistan did not do enough to even allow any form of justice to ever take place, continually telling people that he was not in your country, was in Afghanistan, or was even dead (as you have said, though i'm not aware of it, though i believe you). Fair enough if this is what they believed, but with what has happened these last two days you have to admit this is embarrassing for Pakistan? And if they took your defence as their answer - that attempting to get to these people is not the way to fight terrorism - then it will look even worse. Of course education is the key, but it has to go both ways. When people do what bin Laden has done, or at least claimed to have done, then you cannot just ignore it.

If you look into the situation with the IRA things have improved massively, and a mixture of punishment for the people involved and education has worked very well, so i don't see how this backs up your point of harbouring terrorists. At the very best your government just looks incredibly foolish.


With the last bit are you saying that they are bowing to what America has said, even though they know it is lies? They are prepared to look like absolute fools, just to please an American conspiracy? That's one of the more ridiculous claims you have made and even if true, an even sadder account of the country. They should work on truth and not support America if that was the case. If they had evidence America would not bomb the hell out of you, it would be too scared as it has its own rivals.

i never really liked bin laden or the hype he got both from western media or our own media and i'm not saying that the leaders of such organizations should not be trailed and convicted

i just don't think people realize that the young boys who follow them are not blinded by the promise of 72 virgins (thats wht you get if u go to heaven anyhow)

all these international NGO's and madrassas in pakistan (which the west thinks are the terrorist breading ground) want these kids ingratiated into society and get proper education and a social standing

poverty is a very cruel thing and when a man can't see a future they are willing to kill and die coz they don't see any justice

thats how people rebel

and don't worry abt us being embarrassed by a president who's so corrupt he's known as Mr. 10% and a useless prime minister:laugh3:

abt finding him near kakul, thats where my conspiracy theorist comes out and again i say that the news of him being found there was a punishment for our secret services

a few months ago America jailed two ISI agents who were there on their invite and in answer ISI got Raymond davis caught.
it became a public issue and although the government released him the Pakistani people had something new to hate about a crumbling empire

[howyousawtheworld]

For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world, would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?


However if that's the case it's going to make things difficult to define what is acceptable or not. I think that if you have absolute proof that someone knows information then go for it. Like for example what was done with this Bin Laden raid. They knew about this starting in August, but took the time to make sure that they were completely correct before making a move.

I do though see what you mean in that I'm sure there have been many people that have been tortured that didn't deserve it. If anything I guess I feel it should be a last resort.

That's a decent point. Perhaps torture should be used only in extreme cases the problem is how you define extreme.

[the_gloaming09]

well that's the problem with anything really is defining that line

[Braddock]

i never really liked bin laden

Good answer...

or the hype he got both from western media or our own media and i'm not saying that the leaders of such organizations should not be trailed and convicted

i just don't think people realize that the young boys who follow them are not blinded by the promise of 72 virgins (thats wht you get if u go to heaven anyhow)

What kind of fucked up religion promises that? I presume most will have been through a loving marriage, with a family, and then they get to fuck around at the end. Surely that's wrong? What a lovely thought for a wife to have as she dies.


all these international NGO's and madrassas in pakistan (which the west thinks are the terrorist breading ground) want these kids ingratiated into society and get proper education and a social standing

poverty is a very cruel thing and when a man can't see a future they are willing to kill and die coz they don't see any justice

thats how people rebel

I agree with this, whole heartedly. You sort out the problems and then people don't need to rebel. But as it stands there are problems, and it's a long process, so the world as a whole needs to pull together to help those in need and the richer nations should support others and prevent these things from happening, whilst also in the meantime cutting down on these attacks and not bowing to their pressure and appeasing them in order to prevent future retaliation. I'm a firm believer of no negotiation with terrorists, as in the long term, when they see that there is no compromise, there is greater fear within them. A fear which the extremists deserve in my eyes.

I do believe also, that more could be done to support the less fortunate nations, and I'm disgusted with how many of the richer nations aren't helping enough.

[Braddock]

I'm all for making the torture thing a new thread. It's not something I know much about and I feel I could learn a lot from looking into it and seeing other peoples views.

[the_gloaming09]

I see the whole 72 virgin thing as just a way to sexually repress people. I mean think about it... if you were to be rewarded that amount of virgins in heaven, as cynical or fucked up as it sounds wouldn't it push you to want to get there faster?

Like I saw this the other day and it was funny I thought, but also interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReNIc1K76nM

[the_gloaming09]

I'm all for making the torture thing a new thread. It's not something I know much about and I feel I could learn a lot from looking into it and seeing other peoples views.

i say go for it... it'd be something interesting to discuss

[Imke]

Where would these virgins come from anyway? Is it their hell to end up being the heaven for some random guy?

[howyousawtheworld]

There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

[mc_squared]

There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

And why 72 virgins and not 75, 80 or 100?:confused:

[chuck kottke]

Exquisite Rendition - when the canary sings under duress, it's often not the real tune. But when someone wants that tune to justify some action, it may be exactly what the torturer is seeking.. therein lies one of the problems. Not to mention an abandonment of due process and basic human rights, for which free nations should hold dear, as these are the higher principals upon which free nations are based. Once bad precedent is set, it's a slippery slope to degrade our protections against the whims of those who hold power.
Even the killing of Bin Laden is devoid of due process - while in all likelihood he may very well be guilty, dropping due process sets a very bad precedent, and a war on an amorphous criminal organization is ridiculous - taking on crime is the responsibility of international police cooperation, not a matter of state war. What we do unto others we do unto ourselves - which means a loss of freedom here, justifying war to fit any circumstances that those in power can spin it into, and giving excessive power to the executive branch (king elect under corporate controllership) is dangerous in tempting those in power to overreach their authority and further degrade our freedoms and our democratic republic's system of checks and balances.
As the maxim goes, "What you see in others is a reflection of how you behave and act", even Pooh Bear knows this!
I agree, poverty, inequity, and disrespect are the key issues driving people to the extreme acts they commit, and makes them easy converts to terror cults. To stop the fire, we must remove the tinder-dry fuel and open up the floodgates of opportunity and equality, then all citizens of the world will have the chance to flourish.

[Imke]

Just read about this guy on Twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual) who, unknowing that it was an operation to kill bin Laden, tweeted from the event.

https://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual/status/64780730286358528

[the_gloaming09]

I see what you're saying and I guess it is true that under duress they may give false info.

I guess just for me I see it sometimes as an option when information is needed and there seems to be no other outlet to get the information.


But I do agree 100% with your last part that poverty and what not are the key issues to the extreme acts. However it's easier said than done to open the floodgates to those people when they are already oppressed by either their government or small groups that control their area. Also with their way of life staying the same for song long, it makes things difficult too.


In the end I think it's a huge miscommunication between the various people of the world. I'm sure that a lot of people if they had the chance would know that most Americans are not evil or commit bad acts, but it's the government. If decisions were made by the people of this country, I'm sure that we'd be in nearly none of the conflicts we are in. I also think that if a lot of the people around the world were able to experience what it's like to live here or in other countries with a lot of freedoms they'd be much more likely to I guess want to change. It's always the many that suffer for the few.

[chuck kottke]

I see what you're saying and I guess it is true that under duress they may give false info.

I guess just for me I see it sometimes as an option when information is needed and there seems to be no other outlet to get the information.
> That's the argument we're given, but most of the time it backfires, or is misused - hence, Cueball! :shifty::laugh3: Who provided such "excellent" information to justify the war in Iraq.. I think it's a gamble not worth taking - better to reason with the suspect who may have information, offer them something in return, treat them with respect, then better information is obtained.

But I do agree 100% with your last part that poverty and what not are the key issues to the extreme acts. However it's easier said than done to open the floodgates to those people when they are already oppressed by either their government or small groups that control their area. Also with their way of life staying the same for song long, it makes things difficult too.
> Yes, that is an issue as well - which makes a compelling argument to support citizens when they rise up and demand real democracy and rights, fairness in government, and checks and balances - like an independent judiciary, which the Egyptian people want. Come to think of it, we could use that here too!! :laugh3: Even so, working under imperfect conditions is better than not in my opinion, since then the citizens have open to them education and a window into a wider world, from which they can plan a brighter future for themselves - as the Egyptians and all Middle Eastern Citizens are now working towards. Oppression can only hold an iron grip so long, and there are ways to get assistance and opportunity to citizens even under bad conditions - it just takes a lot more planning and savvy. Holding out an olive branch is more effective when there are ripe olives on it.

In the end I think it's a huge miscommunication between the various people of the world. I'm sure that a lot of people if they had the chance would know that most Americans are not evil or commit bad acts, but it's the government. If decisions were made by the people of this country, I'm sure that we'd be in nearly none of the conflicts we are in. I also think that if a lot of the people around the world were able to experience what it's like to live here or in other countries with a lot of freedoms they'd be much more likely to I guess want to change. It's always the many that suffer for the few.
> Yes, that too - and here as well - people might come to see others just as they would view themselves or their neighbors, if given the opportunity. Unfortunately our government works for those who 'invest' heavily into it, hence the wealthy and insulated run the show from behind the scenes (the Koch's, Walton's, Gates', Buffets, Murdoch's and on and on). I pondered the problem we have of wresting control again of our own nation, which will free not just ourselves here, but also the oppressed citizens in Egypt, Bahrain, and elsewhere - for reigning in the power emanating here will ripple freedom throughout the globe. Yes, we the people need to be in charge here, then many of the current conflicts can be put to an end as well! And how true that is as well - we have more freedom than citizens do in places like Indonesia, Bahrain or Egypt (though that's changing with each passing day), such that if they could experience it (and they are trying their hearts out!) they would want more of it too. I suppose I take for granted the freedom I have, but then it's simply normal to enjoy what is already present.. and to be ever vigilant to maintain and improve our rights as citizens.

[Braddock]

Where would these virgins come from anyway? Is it their hell to end up being the heaven for some random guy?

Presumably they are never ending virgins too, because otherwise that's only 72 fucks before your left with lame experienced sluts, considering they won't be married. 72 fucks to last eternity is not much of a prize if you ask me, if the whole virginity thing is the important thing to them. Unless it's just the fact that they won't have had sex with anybody else and they are yours forever and you know they will only be yours, forever. In which case, just exactly how inferior are women viewed, sounds close to ownership to me.

Not to mention most men will not die in their youth (if as you say that's the reward for everyone), and with organised marriages prevalent, not many women will reach mid-life without marrying unless there's some specific reason that they are not attracting a man, so you're likely to get a lot of old men with a lot of younger women, possibly very young, or older cast offs.

There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

Indeed.

[the_gloaming09]

Well in terms of intelligence I agree. Especially with the whole Iraq War. To me it seems as though it was way too rushed. I think ESPECIALLY when it comes to war that all other options have to be used up and the intelligence has to be nearly perfect. As we've learned from the past the negative effects of war are too much. That's why I feel at least with Iran they are taking the right path in trying to use diplomacy and sanctions before going to war.

At the same time, to play devils advocate, what if there is a situation that requires a dire need of intelligence to prevent something from happening?

Or if just for arguments sake during WWII we were able to capture someone like Joseph Goebbels, or another high person of the Nazi party, what would you do?

I'm not saying it's something that should be used all the time or frequently, but perhaps in extreme scenarios it should be considered.


With your other points I agree. I think that It's much better to show support for the people trying to get their freedom rather than stepping in and acting. I think that has been a huge problem of ours is putting our noses into other peoples business and trying to tell them what to do or control who is in charge. Just let the people and nations decide for themselves. I think in the long run when push comes to shove people will or should be motivated enough to achieve their own free rights.

[Braddock]

i say go for it... it'd be something interesting to discuss

You brought it up haha, you make it :p
I'm still catching up in the thread.

Exquisite Rendition - when the canary sings under duress, it's often not the real tune. But when someone wants that tune to justify some action, it may be exactly what the torturer is seeking.. therein lies one of the problems. Not to mention an abandonment of due process and basic human rights, for which free nations should hold dear, as these are the higher principals upon which free nations are based. Once bad precedent is set, it's a slippery slope to degrade our protections against the whims of those who hold power.
Even the killing of Bin Laden is devoid of due process - while in all likelihood he may very well be guilty, dropping due process sets a very bad precedent, and a war on an amorphous criminal organization is ridiculous - taking on crime is the responsibility of international police cooperation, not a matter of state war. What we do unto others we do unto ourselves - which means a loss of freedom here, justifying war to fit any circumstances that those in power can spin it into, and giving excessive power to the executive branch (king elect under corporate controllership) is dangerous in tempting those in power to overreach their authority and further degrade our freedoms and our democratic republic's system of checks and balances.
As the maxim goes, "What you see in others is a reflection of how you behave and act", even Pooh Bear knows this!
I agree, poverty, inequity, and disrespect are the key issues driving people to the extreme acts they commit, and makes them easy converts to terror cults. To stop the fire, we must remove the tinder-dry fuel and open up the floodgates of opportunity and equality, then all citizens of the world will have the chance to flourish.

Some very interesting points. From the non state of war, which was something I questioned in the first or second page, to it being an international police matter. They'll get away with it, but it's interesting to see exactly what laws they break haha.

[the_gloaming09]

haha alright... so should i make it in this area of the forum or in the lounge?

[Braddock]

Or if just for arguments sake during WWII we were able to capture someone like Joseph Goebbels, or another high person of the Nazi party, what would you do?

We have no idea if that was tried and simply failed. As I said earlier, there will be so many examples of that torture being used and it not being useful but they simply wouldn't release that information, and why would they?

[Braddock]

haha alright... so should i make it in this area of the forum or in the lounge?

This area. Keep the riff raff out haha.

[Braddock]

I agree that the extreme circumstances line is hard to draw, and it's tempting to see it used, but for me I'd say no. Then on the other hand I'm not in charge and I'm not passionate enough to actively protest against its use in this incident, for example.

[the_gloaming09]

We have no idea if that was tried and simply failed. As I said earlier, there will be so many examples of that torture being used and it not being useful but they simply wouldn't release that information, and why would they?
that is true. The government wouldn't want to show it's faults.
This area. Keep the riff raff out haha.
haha alright... done.
I agree that the extreme circumstances line is hard to draw, and it's tempting to see it used, but for me I'd say no. Then on the other hand I'm not in charge and I'm not passionate enough to actively protest against its use in this incident, for example.

Yeah. I mean overall I don't think it's something that should be done on a regular basis. There should be other ways of obtaining information. But I think when there are points in time that there is an imminent threat, I feel it should at least be considered. However I think that there has to be no doubts that the person being interrogated is innocent.

[Megalomania]

I was in Washington D.C. when all this happened. Yesterday, (Monday), we played on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and because of this whole thing they brought in this giant armored Hummer thingy. Quite scary, actually. :|

And every few minutes a military helicopter would fly over us.

[Braddock]

I was in Washington D.C. when all this happened. Yesterday, (Monday), we played on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and because of this whole thing they brought in this giant armored Hummer thingy. Quite scary, actually. :|

And every few minutes a military helicopter would fly over us.

Yeah, I'd have been freaked out.
I just can't imagining that happening in England.

[Destrokk]

My mom said that they made a threat to bomb the border :sad: My dad works in the U.S and if we can't cross over there he won't be able to go to his job and... we'll live on the streets :bigcry:

[nouratan]

What kind of fucked up religion promises that? I presume most will have been through a loving marriage, with a family, and then they get to fuck around at the end. Surely that's wrong? What a lovely thought for a wife to have as she dies.

i think its same for women too:confused:
i know as much as you do, but i believe in my religion so i won't say anything else...




I agree with this, whole heartedly. You sort out the problems and then people don't need to rebel. But as it stands there are problems, and it's a long process, so the world as a whole needs to pull together to help those in need and the richer nations should support others and prevent these things from happening, whilst also in the meantime cutting down on these attacks and not bowing to their pressure and appeasing them in order to prevent future retaliation. I'm a firm believer of no negotiation with terrorists, as in the long term, when they see that there is no compromise, there is greater fear within them. A fear which the extremists deserve in my eyes.

I do believe also, that more could be done to support the less fortunate nations, and I'm disgusted with how many of the richer nations aren't helping enough.

the governments are never going to help eachother we the the masses have to cooperate and find a solution.

we have to realize that armies need wars to get money from their people and we the masses just become collateral damage



I see the whole 72 virgin thing as just a way to sexually repress people. I mean think about it... if you were to be rewarded that amount of virgins in heaven, as cynical or fucked up as it sounds wouldn't it push you to want to get there faster?

Like I saw this the other day and it was funny I thought, but also interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReNIc1K76nM

you do realize that suicide is forbidden in Islam

[Braddock]

i think its same for women too:confused:
i know as much as you do, but i believe in my religion so i won't say anything else...

A very odd thing to say, but I won't pursue and simply request that you use your own time to consider these things and why they are in place, and if without them you would not be a good person. If I was to guess I'd say the answers to these wouldn't matter to you as the lure of heaven and the fear of hell is the main reason for your co-operation with the religion, combined with it being a social norm.

Anyway, I don't think what I say is gonna change your mind, and as an individual you seem like a good person, so you can wrestle with the dogmas you follow without me berating you.


the governments are never going to help eachother we the the masses have to cooperate and find a solution.

we have to realize that armies need wars to get money from their people and we the masses just become collateral damage


It isn't quite as simple as that, but it's a point. There are unpopular wars, and elections are lost on them. Also, not all wars are money-making, certainly not to a huge extent. And with this one in particular, I can see why they did it.

How do we find a solution?

[nouratan]

A very odd thing to say, but I won't pursue and simply request that you use your own time to consider these things and why they are in place, and if without them you would not be a good person. If I was to guess I'd say the answers to these wouldn't matter to you as the lure of heaven and the fear of hell is the main reason for your co-operation with the religion, combined with it being a social norm.

Anyway, I don't think what I say is gonna change your mind, and as an individual you seem like a good person, so you can wrestle with the dogmas you follow without me berating you.



It isn't quite as simple as that, but it's a point. There are unpopular wars, and elections are lost on them. Also, not all wars are money-making, certainly not to a huge extent. And with this one in particular, I can see why they did it.

How do we find a solution?

sadly im learning more about my religion now
i learned being a muslim from a rock band so that doesn't count and i've just started reading the Quran about 7 months back.

and i believe in all Abrahamic religions heaven is wht one wants it and so men only talking about all the virgins they'll get there

by the way in islam the most important thing are the right of people/animals

and we as muslims even have to follow a few rules in war and pearce

amazingly enough we can't cut trees or kill animals when in war...

and as for solving this problem stop being racist

[Braddock]

by the way in islam the most important thing are the right of people/animals

and we as muslims even have to follow a few rules in war and pearce

amazingly enough we can't cut trees or kill animals when in war...

and as for solving this problem stop being racist

All I would say to this is that these things are outside of Islam as well.

And racism needs to be tackled, but stopping it is a long term goal and easier said than done.

[nouratan]

its the same in humanism i know
most of the ppl here in this part of the world converted because of sufi saints and they preached humanism more then anything else

media can help....

[The Final Track]

Not intending to offend anyone but this has to be posted:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkolr6RGIl1qb40tbo1_500.jpg

[the_gloaming09]

^:lol:


Also I had a discussion with my parents today about Bin Ladens death and the reaction. I feel that although it's good to not live in a world with him that the reaction by people in Washington and NYC was a bit too much. I mean to me it looked like a frat party or like a superbowl celebration. I was honestly ashamed to see people acting the way they were. I could understand why people would be happy, but to act so immaturely? Regardless of who has died, the death of a human should not be celebrated in that fashion unless it's honoring their life. For me it was more of the principal behind it.

It's like say that a family member of yours was killed and you went to see the execution of the person. I'm sure that you wouldn't start jumping up and down.

I just feel that if America wants to seem sophisticated, that doing something like that isn't the way to do it. I feel it would give off a really bad impression and in fact influence more people to do bad things by seeing our reaction and being angered, much how right after 9/11 people (including myself) was angered to see people celebrating what happened.


What is everyone elses thoughts on the reaction of his death by Americans as seen in DC and NYC?

[chuck kottke]

^ I agree, we set a bad example when we celebrate someone's death, no matter how glad we might be that this person is gone - it is immature, and sends a message of disrespect around the world.
> I think the right thing we should have done was to first try and apprehend Osama, his associates, and obtain witnesses. There needed to be a normal trial, preserving the rule of law and upholding our highest principles of equal justice for all, not lowering ourselves to the level of frontier gunmen with no respect for the rule of law. We did this with the Nazis war leaders, with the Balkan war leaders, and played a role in getting other accused leaders to trial; this execution sets a bad precedent, and defiles our highest principles.

[Braddock]

I'll refer you to part of my original post in this thread, made about ten minutes after I found out about bin Laden's death:

If anyone on this board did this:

"Crowds gathered outside the White House in Washington DC, chanting "USA, USA" after the news emerged."

You are simple.

I stand by it.

It's took a relatively long time for a significant number of people (not talking about this board apart from the cringe bit coming up, more generally in the news etc) to move from delight, to minor cringing at it, to starting to understand the potential severity of reacting in that way.

The hysteria will have played a part though, and if it had been an attack on English soil and our government forced a ridiculous amount of propaganda on us then I'm sure the scenes would have been the same here. In fact even just the uneducated, without propaganda.

[NumbersGirl]

I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. All of the celebrations made me cringe too. Initially, I felt a slight sense of relief when I heard the news, but I wasn't about to go out and do what some of those people were doing in such a celebratory manner.

However, I also think you guys are grossly over-simplifying it by saying "celebrating anyone's death bad". I don't think that's entirely what it was. I've gotta think a little more about how I want to explain it, I just woke up. I'll post more detail later.

[Braddock]

I wouldn't care if somebody thought it was a positive thing (I'm still waiting on Thatcher to depart), but it's not something to take to the streets for. Celebration of death is completely different to simply seeing it as a positive thing and it's also incredibly naive (at best) in this circumstance. I think the way to deal with it is personally and dare I say it respectfully (for those who died in 9/11 rather than whoever's death sparked this feeling), but hey, people can do what they want. Just don't expect me not to point out how foolish they look and are being. I'm not gonna actually stop them.

[NumbersGirl]

Celebration of death
But that's part of the point I'm going to make, is that you guys are over-simplifying it by saying that it was just about his death.

[Braddock]

I'll wait till you make your point then, but I don't think my opinion changes even after taking into account the huge symbolism and relief connected to it, since it's obvious to most the backlash such actions could result in.

[Imke]

Celebrating any death seems odd to me.

I also cringe at pictures of families watching the execution of the murderer of a loved one. That has a lot to do with my opinion about death penalty though.
It just doesn't seem like justice to me to see the one who caused you this pain suffer the same fate. In my eyes, that's not justice, it's vengeance, which is in contradiction to the Christian values many Americans believe in.

I can understand the immediate reaction of those who went on the streets to a certain degree. But screaming "USA! USA!" just seemed like provocation and a very immature "IN YO FACE"-statement towards opponents of the United States. Just because there were people celebrating 9/11, doesn't mean US citizens have to do the same now, now that bin Laden is dead. Even if the death fills them with relief and happiness (which is more than understandable), it would be immensely important to show it in a respectful manner.

[chuck kottke]

I agree Imke - exactly as you said it. It is immature and maybe even indicative of some mass identification with power for power's sake, as though the world's countries and cultures are nothing but sports teams, and cheer for the home team to beat (literally and figuratively) the "opponents" elsewhere - totally weird.

[NumbersGirl]

Massive multi-quote followed by my response.

What is everyone elses thoughts on the reaction of his death by Americans as seen in DC and NYC?I agree, we set a bad example when we celebrate someone's death, no matter how glad we might be that this person is gone - it is immature, and sends a message of disrespect around the world.I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. All of the celebrations made me cringe too. Initially, I felt a slight sense of relief when I heard the news, but I wasn't about to go out and do what some of those people were doing in such a celebratory manner.

However, I also think you guys are grossly over-simplifying it by saying "celebrating anyone's death bad". I don't think that's entirely what it was. I've gotta think a little more about how I want to explain it, I just woke up. I'll post more detail later.I wouldn't care if somebody thought it was a positive thing (I'm still waiting on Thatcher to depart), but it's not something to take to the streets for. Celebration of death is completely different to simply seeing it as a positive thing and it's also incredibly naive (at best) in this circumstance.But that's part of the point I'm going to make, is that you guys are over-simplifying it by saying that it was just about his death.I'll wait till you make your point then, but I don't think my opinion changes even after taking into account the huge symbolism and relief connected to it, since it's obvious to most the backlash such actions could result in.

Okay first, just to clarify my personal stance:
- I felt a slight sense of relief about it (that he's gone), but I also worry about the consequences
- I cringed when I saw the 'celebrations' on TV
- I would NOT have gone out in the streets like that

However, as I mentioned, I think this reaction of disgust over seeing the 'celebrations' is being over-simplified. Were there people out there that were solely celebrating his death? Sure. Those are the ones I'm cringing at (as well as most of you here). But we can't say that's what every single person out there was doing.

Many people were expressing more of a sense of relief that this person who has taken up so much attention over the past years and cost thousands of lives either through the attacks or through the resulting effort to find him, is no longer here; he no longer has to be found. More years don't have to be wasted hoping he is found, thinking it may never come to fruition. Now, while I expressed relief in the comfort of my home by not really saying anything and then proceeding to go to sleep for the night shortly after, other people feeling a sense of camaraderie decided to go out and be around other people. (Let's face it, some people prefer to be around other people in certain situations, some people prefer to be by themselves.) Now, when these individuals meet up with the others, they might decide to express their relief in a sense of unity with the others; the unifying factor being 'USA blah blah blah'. But how do we know who is who? WE CAN'T. That's why I think it's over-simplifying it to say, "oh look at each and every one of those people, they are all simply celebrating death, how dare they."


Maybe it might be better to relate the above in an analogy:

Pretend some dude is a 40-year-old virgin and his friends have been routing for him to get laid for several years, to no avail. Then finally one day he announces to his friends that last night he spent 40 minutes with a prostitute. Some of his friends say, "You were with a prostitute?! Cool!" Umm, NO that's not cool. His other friends are thinking, "Finally, he got laid after all these years." Regardless of which of his friends think what, they all go out to the bar with him to revel in the fact that he is no longer a 40-year-old virgin. Of course, they soon realize that there could be bad consequences of the 40 minutes he spent with the prostitute, i.e., an STD or two. But regardless, they won't be wondering for the next 10 to 20 years if he will ever get laid. It's done.
Now if I'm sitting in the same bar observing this from afar, how do I know which friends are thinking what? I DON'T.


That might be a piss-poor analogy, but I think it's a good idea to depart from the actual topic so the emotinal factor is mostly removed from the judgments/comparisons.

Anywho.

[Braddock]

I see what you mean, but you have to question their intelligence then. The first thing I, and many of my friends thought was 'shit's gonna kick off'. I agree that not everyone will be celebrating death, and yes some people do prefer being around others, but they are incredibly naive. I honestly don't think you would see it in some of the European countries on anywhere near the scale.

My points haven't been as much about them celebrating death, it has been about their lack of intuition to realise what could come from their actions and how it could be perceived (if you said that post to the 'enemy' I don't think they would listen, and it is those who you'd rather believe), combined with the constant use of the word justice.

But yes, I concede that we have tarred a lot of people with the same brush who do not deserve it.

[chuck kottke]

I see what you're saying - yes, not everyone was out there celebrating this as some sports analogy 'victory', some were simply relieved, and wanted to feel a sense of camaraderie at that moment. Perhaps what shows up on TV is the noisy boisterous types who were chanting "USA USA USA" , since they make the biggest splash in the press. But I wonder about the numbers of each, and how this will be seen elsewhere - impressions are hard to undo, even when they are not indicative of the whole.
Even so, what bothers me is that in previous moves to deal with suspicious or criminal leaders, due process has always been preserved. If for no other reason than for the preservation of our system of justice, that the principle must be upheld in all cases where an impartial trial for alleged crimes committed takes place.
That has slid - Milosevic was tried, Mugabe was tried, and many others were tried in international courts. It appears Bin Laden could have been captured and tried, but instead he was killed on the spot - which is a loss of due process.
When we loose due process, we set a bad precedent - it says to people who were unaware of Bin Laden's crimes that we don't stand for justice, we just take revenge. It also sets up a precedent for assassinations, something we don't want to see go on.
Also, if there was involvement by others, this may have come to light at trial - but cannot now be brought out in the light for all to see.

[NumbersGirl]

I agree that not everyone will be celebrating death, and yes some people do prefer being around others, but they are incredibly naive. I honestly don't think you would see it in some of the European countries on anywhere near the scale.I'm curious what the reaction was to Hitler's death. I'm not saying that in a snarky tone, I really haven't seen any footage of that (recently). But I highly doubt there were zero celebrations in Europe.


My points haven't been as much about them celebrating death, it has been about their lack of intuition to realise what could come from their actions and how it could be perceived (if you said that post to the 'enemy' I don't think they would listen, and it is those who you'd rather believe), combined with the constant use of the word justice.True (regarding what could come from their actions); but I don't think we can say that nothing would happen if everyone stayed home and those soires didn't occur. The man is dead; regardless of how people express their reaction, there's going to be retaliation simply because he's dead.

[Imke]

Many people were expressing more of a sense of relief that this person who has taken up so much attention over the past years and cost thousands of lives either through the attacks or through the resulting effort to find him, is no longer here; he no longer has to be found. More years don't have to be wasted hoping he is found, thinking it may never come to fruition. Now, while I expressed relief in the comfort of my home by not really saying anything and then proceeding to go to sleep for the night shortly after, other people feeling a sense of camaraderie decided to go out and be around other people. (Let's face it, some people prefer to be around other people in certain situations, some people prefer to be by themselves.) Now, when these individuals meet up with the others, they might decide to express their relief in a sense of unity with the others; the unifying factor being 'USA blah blah blah'. But how do we know who is who? WE CAN'T. That's why I think it's over-simplifying it to say, "oh look at each and every one of those people, they are all simply celebrating death, how dare they."

I haven't considered this yet and of course you're right that not all of them went there for celebrating a death. And of course it must be a huge relief to know that no more lives have to be sacrificed just to hunt one man down.

I didn't mean to say that everyone present was shouting USA! USA!, I think there were probably quite a few people in front of the White House or at Ground Zero who thought this was too much too.

[mc_squared]

'Cheese-eating surrender monkeys': American anger at 'arrogant' Europeans' muted reaction to Bin Laden killing



By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)
Last updated at 7:13 PM on 5th May 2011


Comments (692) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383802/Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys-U-S-bloggers-slam-Europeans-muted-reaction-Bin-Laden-killing.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383802/Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys-U-S-bloggers-slam-Europeans-muted-reaction-Bin-Laden-killing.html)





What happened to post-9/11 solidarity as Europe asks questions over legality and morality of killing unarmed man?
Blogger calls Europeans: 'Arrogant, smug, thoughtless and thankless'
Archbishop of Canterbury says killing of unarmed Bin Laden left him with 'a very uncomfortable feeling'

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/05/article-1383802-0BC1EDDE00000578-16_306x423.jpg Religious reaction: The Archbishop of Canterbury said the killing of Osama Bin Laden while he was not armed has left him with 'a very uncomfortable feeling'

Europeans have been labelled 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' by bloggers in the U.S. angry at being chastised for celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden.

While thousands of Americans took to the streets to celebrate the killing, the reaction in Europe was much more muted.

Many have questioned not only the manner of the killing of an unarmed man, but also the taste and dignity of the American public who celebrated the act by chanting 'USA' in the streets, mocking up T-shirts and generally revelling in the moment.

One of those expressing these sentiments is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who said: 'I think the killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn't look as if justice is seen to be done.'

'In those circumstances, I think it's also true that the different versions of events that have emerged in recent days have not done a great deal to help.'

However, he went on: 'But I do believe that in such circumstances when we are faced with someone who was manifestly a war criminal in terms of the atrocities inflicted it is important that justice is seen to be served.'

When Bin Laden's men flew airliners into New York's World Trade Center ten years ago, it sparked an outpouring of solidarity from Europe, best captured by a French newspaper headline 'We are all Americans now'.

But that solidarity seemingly hasn't lasted.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383802/Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys-U-S-bloggers-slam-Europeans-muted-reaction-Bin-Laden-killing.html#ixzz1LVm5dex1

[Braddock]

I'm curious what the reaction was to Hitler's death. I'm not saying that in a snarky tone, I really haven't seen any footage of that (recently). But I highly doubt there were zero celebrations in Europe.


True (regarding what could come from their actions); but I don't think we can say that nothing would happen if everyone stayed home and those soires didn't occur. The man is dead; regardless of how people express their reaction, there's going to be retaliation simply because he's dead.

I imagine the same as in America, since they were involved too. Relief first and foremost. A lack of sympathy towards Hitler (fair enough, sympathy depends on the people, you either have it or you don't). But his death brought about the end of the war. This one is not over. I'm surprised people didn't realise this.

I guess I'm just surprised that there was no forward thinking at all from some of the people. In that moment it was like they had won the war. Like everything was over. I just can't imagine what person would think that, even in the height of joy and relief.

Yes, retaliation is inevitable, but it's so much easier when they've got more propaganda to use. Helps to demonise you guys to the rest of the world. Could well be the thing that helps a future terrorist to join the fight.

[Braddock]

Who are the bloggers Mark? Just saying 'bloggers' doesn't really mean much.
And anything to add to any of the threads?

[NumbersGirl]

I imagine the same as in America, since they were involved too. Relief first and foremost. A lack of sympathy towards Hitler (fair enough, sympathy depends on the people, you either have it or you don't). But his death brought about the end of the war. This one is not over. I'm surprised people didn't realise this.

I guess I'm just surprised that there was no forward thinking at all from some of the people. In that moment it was like they had won the war. Like everything was over. I just can't imagine what person would think that, even in the height of joy and relief.

Yes, retaliation is inevitable, but it's so much easier when they've got more propaganda to use. Helps to demonise you guys to the rest of the world. Could well be the thing that helps a future terrorist to join the fight.
yes - agreed on all counts

[chuck kottke]

Here from the land of wine and cheese liberals, I can honestly say I feel much the same. But indeed this isn't over, since the root of the cause has barely been addressed, and since this insane "war on terror" is like making war on raindrops.
Why not re-brand it as an International Effort to Curb Violent Extremism? The IECEV ? Start with working to treat all citizens of the world justly, leveling the economic playing field, and respecting the traditions of all cultures? Put the emphasis and money on improved education, infrastructure, disease eradication and treatment, and fair trade? Seems a lot cheaper than all the ultra-expensive military hardware we've poured a good third of our U.S. budget into (covertly and otherwise). By some estimates, as much as 60% of the U.S. budget goes into war and war related things - seems like a lot more improvement in security could be had for a lot less if that money were spent elsewhere..

[Braddock]

Here from the land of wine and cheese liberals, I can honestly say I feel much the same. But indeed this isn't over, since the root of the cause has barely been addressed, and since this insane "war on terror" is like making war on raindrops.
Why not re-brand it as an International Effort to Curb Violent Extremism? The IECEV ? Start with working to treat all citizens of the world justly, leveling the economic playing field, and respecting the traditions of all cultures? Put the emphasis and money on improved education, infrastructure, disease eradication and treatment, and fair trade? Seems a lot cheaper than all the ultra-expensive military hardware we've poured a good third of our U.S. budget into (covertly and otherwise). By some estimates, as much as 60% of the U.S. budget goes into war and war related things - seems like a lot more improvement in security could be had for a lot less if that money were spent elsewhere..

But what would they gain in that?
They don't work with love.

[the_gloaming09]

I don't care if people think of me as unpatriotic (because I love living in this country), but that whole chanting of "USA! USA! USA!" really annoys the hell out of me almost more than anything else.

Back to the topic I agree with pretty much everyone has said. I think it puts a bad image on our country and also the people that live in it. I personally don't like how by the rest of the world seeing that that it makes it easy to assume that I as well as the other 300 million Americans feel the same way.

I say if you want to "celebrate" his death, do it in the privacy of your own home.

[Crests]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkov7oopRq1qaaowno1_500.jpg

This is definitely what happened.

[NumbersGirl]

I was just watching ABC World News tonight and they did a report regarding the fact that they also brought in some sort of special ops dog with them. These dogs are trained like Navy Seals. It even showed them jumping out of the helicopters with the dudes (in a general sense, not pictures from this specific mission). They wear waterproof bulletproof vests, trained to do specific things, have bugs planted in their ears so they can receive commands remotely, and... this is creepy... they have titanium teeth implanted so they have the ability to bite through Kevlar. :sick: The government is not allowed to reveal the specific breed used, but I'm guessing it's a hybrid of a few different breeds.

Wow.

[chuck kottke]

Jaws! images (JPEG Image, 204x244 pixels) (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT60PerbbdrJ4kbtc8wXrPUFaeJ3D2kG FXzFg3uXoWPOCSTHLyzDA)

[Karencorpse]

I heard it is true, and a lot of people are celebrating it here. I am concerned about future violence and destruction as a result of this. We should take this slowly and be careful of the details.

[chuck kottke]

Yes, I agree - better to not provoke a bad reaction, but alas, people do what comes to their minds.. rarely thinking about how others will react. Perhaps it's just the noisemakers who get the attention, but once that's out there, no telling what the reaction will be.
If only they had apprehended Osama, and given him a fair trial, aired all the truth, maybe that would have embarrassed certain people, but at least real justice would have been served, and perhaps citizens in Pakistan and elsewhere would have known the truth. Ending the motives that drive young people to violent extremism is the biggest thing we can do, however I know that's not easy with all the corruption everywhere. What to do, what to do.. First let's start with getting the U.S. on a level course, getting the money out of politics - beginning here allows for better policy choices affected everyone else in the world. Canada, England, U.S., Italy.. - we all need to reverse the trends..

[Josh42]

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/225294_10150171676514290_556844289_7031997_1014142 _n.jpg

hehe

[Chloe_Martin]

http://i55.tinypic.com/nyckef.jpg
:laugh3:

[Braddock]

Yes, I agree - better to not provoke a bad reaction, but alas, people do what comes to their minds.. rarely thinking about how others will react. Perhaps it's just the noisemakers who get the attention, but once that's out there, no telling what the reaction will be.
If only they had apprehended Osama, and given him a fair trial, aired all the truth, maybe that would have embarrassed certain people, but at least real justice would have been served, and perhaps citizens in Pakistan and elsewhere would have known the truth. Ending the motives that drive young people to violent extremism is the biggest thing we can do, however I know that's not easy with all the corruption everywhere. What to do, what to do.. First let's start with getting the U.S. on a level course, getting the money out of politics - beginning here allows for better policy choices affected everyone else in the world. Canada, England, U.S., Italy.. - we all need to reverse the trends..

Yup yup yup.

[mc_squared]

Bin Laden had not left the room where he was shot for the past FIVE YEARS, claims his wife



Osama Bin Laden spent the last five years living in the room of his mansion where he was shot and killed by U.S. forces, according to Pakistan security officials.

The claims were made by the terrorist leader's wife, who apparently told interrogators that she and her husband had not left the same room for the past half a decade.

The revelations of Amal al-Sadah, Bin Laden's Yemeni wife, sheds new light on the existence of the world's most wanted man.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/05/article-1383803-094589D1000005DC-677_306x423.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/05/article-1383803-0BE8183200000578-973_306x423.jpg

Confined: Osama Bin Laden lived in the same room for the past five years, according to his wife Amal al-Sadah


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383803/Osama-Bin-Laden-left-room-shot-5-YEARS-claims-wife.html#ixzz1LYq4ny1g

[Braddock]

Anything to add Mark?

[Chloe_Martin]

r u serious it took America 10 years just to find him...........


BUT HE WAS IN THE SAME ROOM FOR 5 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mc_squared]

r u serious it took America 10 years just to find him...........


BUT HE WAS IN THE SAME ROOM FOR 5 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes - if it's true, you have to say it was a bit of a fail!:dozey:

[Chloe_Martin]

talk about the shittiest hide and seek..........

[Braddock]

I really wish you'd contribute more Mark, rather than limiting yourself to one line responses on these matters. I'm sure your wisdom could inspire many. Several posters in this topic, and elsewhere on the board, help to develop the threads with their own insights, put forward compelling arguments (on many sides of the coin) and served to spark debate and force people into questioning their pre-conceptions. Don't you think you could try?

[Chloe_Martin]

whats there to contribute the guys dead....

[Braddock]

whats there to contribute the guys dead....

Read this thread in full.
Read the torture thread in full.
Join people in the real world.
Grow up.

[mc_squared]

whats there to contribute the guys dead....

Unless you happen to be a conspiracy theorist, of course.;)

[Chloe_Martin]

nah. his body went to swim with the fishies :P

[Alice]

whats there to contribute the guys dead....

LOL.

[Cobalt]

whats there to contribute the guys dead....
EDIT - Guh... guh... nevermind. If you cannot see it for yourself, then, well, I don't know.

[Braddock]

Unless you happen to be a conspiracy theorist, of course.;)

Looking more and more likely he was killed at the time they said he was killed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201

[Chloe_Martin]

@Cobalt. What are you talking about................!?!?!

[Braddock]

:facepalm:

[deaths_friend]

in the eyes of his supporters Bin Laden is now greater than ever. he is a martyr. you can't top that.

[mc_squared]

nah. his body went to swim with the fishies :P

Oswama Fin Laden?:rolleyes:

Looking more and more likely he was killed at the time they said he was killed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201

I never doubted it. I'm not one of the conspiracy theorists.;)

in the eyes of his supporters Bin Laden is now greater than ever. he is a martyr. you can't top that.

What about beatification?:rolleyes:

[Braddock]

I never doubted it. I'm not one of the conspiracy theorists.;)

At which point did I say you were?

[eff-exx]

How did he and his family stand being in the mansion for so long? Assuming they didn't go out.
And I'm wondering how the wife must be feeling now. I mean, does she still love Osama despite all he has done? Or is she feeling relieved that she could get out of the house?

[NumbersGirl]

^ Not just one wife. I think three of his wives were taken into custody. He had five. (According to a news report last night.)

[eff-exx]

What's going to happen to them? :uhoh:
/stupid question

[NumbersGirl]

:confused: I'm not sure. They are currently in custody in Pakistan; apparently the U.S. wanted to take custody of them for questioning, but Pakistan won't let them because of all the tension that has developed between each government as a result of all of this.

[eff-exx]

Gosh. :|



Do you think it's possible that the effect of Osama's death could be worse than the threat of Osama alive...?

[mc_squared]

What's going to happen to them? :uhoh:


I believe they've all been signed up for the next series of Big Brother.:P

[NumbersGirl]

Do you think it's possible that the effect of Osama's death could be worse than the threat of Osama alive...?

Yes, it's certainly possible

[Braddock]

Gosh. :|



Do you think it's possible that the effect of Osama's death could be worse than the threat of Osama alive...?

It's most certainly possible.

Osama was the person who gave the go ahead for plots, but didn't come up with that many himself. 9/11 wasn't his plot, for example. If his death leads to greater hatred, as you would imagine it would, then they don't even need the right guidance to do damage close to them in neighbouring countries. Could be harder to organise a global threat, but there's always somebody ready to take his place, like in any organisation.

[busybeeburns]

He had five. (According to a news report last night.)He wouldn't have had enough energy to leave that room even if he had wanted to!

[mc_squared]

He wouldn't have had enough energy to leave that room even if he had wanted to!

Well now he has the 72 virgins to contend with, doesn't he?:rolleyes:

[mc_squared]

Hundreds of militant Muslims stage mock funeral for Bin Laden outside U.S. embassy in London... as relatives of 7/7 terror attack victims weep at inquest just three miles away


By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)

Last updated at 8:24 PM on 6th May 2011



Radicals warn 'it is only a matter of time' before another atrocity
EDL member burns Bin Laden effigy among extremist Muslims


A protest by hundreds of Osama Bin Laden supporters sparked fury outside the US Embassy in London today as they staged a mock 'funeral service' for the terror leader.
Police stepped in to separate the protesters and members of the English Defence League amid threats of violence from both sides.
Radicals carrying placards proclaiming 'Islam will dominate the world' branded US leaders 'murderers' and warned vengeance attacks were 'guaranteed'.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BEFE09B00000578-385_634x391.jpg Protesters argue with police officers as they attempt to regain control of the situation in central London


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-0-0BEFE39F00000578-624_634x416.jpg Muslim protesters clash with police outside the American Embassy in London

The protest came shortly after the verdict into the 7/7 inquest was released by Lady Justice Heather Hallett.
She recorded that the 52 victims had been 'unlawfully' killed when four terrorists attacked three London Underground trains and a bus in 2005.

More...



Emergency services made mistakes after 7/7 bombings - but all 52 victims would have died 'whatever time the emergency services reached them', says coroner (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384179/7-7-inquest-verdict-Emergency-services-mistakes-52-victims-died.html)
The spies next door: CIA agents moved into house near Bin Laden's compound for months . . .while he'd stayed cooped up in the same room for FIVE years (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384137/Osama-Bin-Laden-death-CIA-agents-lived-spy-house-near-compound-MONTHS.html)
Effigies burned, flags ablaze and black masked extremists on the streets: Muslim fury over Bin Laden's death erupts at Friday prayers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384276/Osama-Bin-Laden-death-revenge-Muslim-fury-erupts-Friday-prayers.html)
The glamour model, the billionaire patriarch with 22 wives and the child terrorist: Meet the OTHER Bin Ladens (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384019/Osama-Bin-Laden-family-Glamour-model-billionaire-patriarch-child-terrorist.html)
Effigies burned, flags ablaze and black masked extremists on the streets: Muslim fury over Bin Laden's death erupts at Friday prayers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384276/Osama-Bin-Laden-death-revenge-Muslim-fury-erupts-Friday-prayers.html)


Lady Justice Hallett made a string of recommendations to both MI5 to prevent further atrocities and to 999 workers to react more effectively to major events.
Relatives of the victims wept openly as the judge announced her verdict and she paid tribute to their 'quiet dignity' before reading the name of each person who died.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-0-0BEFE47200000578-580_634x912.jpg Police try to protect one of their colleagues as he gets into difficulties during the protest


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF004D800000578-55_634x376.jpg Muslim demonstrators outside the U.S. embassy protest peacefully before they clashed with police


However just three miles from the Royal Court of Justice, Muslim protester Abu Muaz, 28, from east London claimed 'it is only a matter of time' before another attack and that the 'West is the enemy'.
The capital has seen heightened security in recent days over fears of a revenge attacks by Al-Qaeda members.
The protest against Bin Laden's death was organised by controversial preacher Anjem Choudary - who praised both 7/7 and the September 11 attacks.
The former UK leader of the outlawed al-Muhajiroun and member of the 'poppy-burning' Muslims Against Crusades extremist group called on the U.S. to return bin Laden's body to relatives.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF0056A00000578-12_634x375.jpg The demonstrators chant slogans and show off home-made placards as they walk close to Grovesnor Square in central London




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF05C7600000578-773_634x418.jpg The Pro-Bin Laden supporters pray for the Al Qaeda leader during the protest

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF05C7200000578-739_634x422.jpg This youngster waves a flag of support as he is carried atop a man's shoulders as they walk close to the embassy


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF00EA300000578-955_634x376.jpg
Muslim women in niqabs offer prayers for the Al Qaeda leader outside the embassy

He has already warned of another 7/7-style terror attack in the wake of Bin Laden's death.
Britain has followed the US in placing its embassies, diplomatic missions and military bases around the world on heightened alert in recent days.
An EDL member did manage to slip through police lines to unveil an effigy of Bin Laden in the middle of the 300-strong group of extremist Muslims.
It prompted screams of 'USA, burn in hell' and 'Obama, burn in hell' from angry protesters.
The protests from both sides left onlookers in Grosvenor Square unimpressed.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BF00F8A00000578-446_634x391.jpg Police officers stand guard outside the building which, alongside other embassies, diplomatic missions and military bases around the world, has been on heightened alert in recent days


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BEFFD7E00000578-315_634x358.jpg Members of the English Defence League met at the U.S. embassy to confront the Muslims during the protests



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/06/article-1384353-0BEF0A9F00000578-210_634x418.jpg Marie Fatayi-Williams, whose son Anthony was killed in the Tavistock Square explosion, was overcome with emotion as she left the High Court

Mary Smythe, 38, from Croydon, south London, said: 'I think both sides are pathetic, quite frankly.

'It's disappointing and horrible to listen to the threats. They are all an embarrassment to this country.'
Bin Laden, who masterminded the attack in 2001 on the Twin Towers in New York, was killed on Monday by U.S. forces in Pakistan.

The CIA spied on Osama Bin Laden for months from its own top-secret safehouse in Abbottabad, it has since been revealed.

In one of the most intricate intelligence operations in CIA history, spies moved in to a property next door to Bin Laden's fortified compound to establish his 'pattern of life'.
President Barack Obama yesterday visited New York to place a wreath at Ground Zero.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384353/Osama-bin-Laden-mock-funeral-Fury-erupts-outside-US-Embassy-London.html#ixzz1LbsHzpai

[Braddock]

None of that story means anything.
Let's move on.

[eff-exx]

Yes, it's certainly possible

It's most certainly possible.

Osama was the person who gave the go ahead for plots, but didn't come up with that many himself. 9/11 wasn't his plot, for example. If his death leads to greater hatred, as you would imagine it would, then they don't even need the right guidance to do damage close to them in neighbouring countries. Could be harder to organise a global threat, but there's always somebody ready to take his place, like in any organisation.

It's like a never-ending war. :wreck:

[mc_squared]

None of that story means anything.


Yes it does. It shows the civil unrest that has already been caused by Bin Laden's death.;)

[chuck kottke]

It's like a never-ending war. :wreck:
Well, it's only a big problem if we don't help improve the lives of those in Muslim majority poor countries, or if we don't follow our highest ethical principles. After all, recruits happen when inequity persists. There will always be some, but lessening the odds is really where it's at.

[howyousawtheworld]

Just looking at pictures and video on BBC News from the US Department of Defence showing Bin Laden, grey beard and all flicking the channels. What's the chance he lands on babestation?

[an angel]

What's a babestation.

[Braddock]

Yes it does. It shows the civil unrest that has already been caused by Bin Laden's death.;)
A hundred or so people is hardly major news. There were always going to be a few people who disagreed in a nation of 307 million.

Just looking at pictures and video on BBC News from the US Department of Defence showing Bin Laden, grey beard and all flicking the channels. What's the chances he lands on babestation?

What's a babestation.

:laugh3:

[mc_squared]

Obsessed with his own image: White House releases home movies of Bin Laden watching himself on the news



Extraordinary home videos taken from Osama bin Laden's hideout show the terrorist leader watching news coverage of himself on television.
The videos were seized by Navy SEALs after Bin Laden was killed Monday. They were shown to reporters this afternoon by intelligence officials.

The five movies offer the first public glimpse at Bin Laden's life behind the walls of his compound in suburban Pakistan.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF378F300000578-646_634x422.jpg
Image-obsessed: One of the five videos shows Bin Laden sitting on the dirty floor of the compound watching video footage of himself on television after flicking through the channels with a remote control
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF3830600000578-987_306x293.jpg The footage shows the Al Qaeda leader was still obsessed with trying to control his image even from the confines of the compound

The government-selected clips also provide an opportunity for the U.S. to paint Bin Laden in an unflattering light to his supporters.

The videos include outtakes of his propaganda films and, taken together, portray him as someone obsessed with his own image and how he is portrayed to the world - even from the confines of the compound.
The videos, released by U.S. intelligence officials Saturday, were offered as further proof that Navy SEALs killed the world's most wanted terrorist this week.
But they also served to show bin Laden as vain, someone obsessed with his portrayal by the world's media.
One of the movies shows bin Laden, his unkempt beard streaked in gray, sitting on the floor, wrapped in a brown blanket and holding a remote control.

He flipped back and forth between what appears to be live news coverage of himself. The old, small television was perched on top of a desk with a large tangle of electrical wires running to a nearby control box.
In another, he has apparently dyed and neatly trimmed his beard for the filming of a propaganda video.

The video, which the U.S. released without sound, was titled 'Message to the American People' and was believed to be filed sometime last fall, a senior CIA official told reporters today.
The videos were seized from Bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF37D5500000578-884_634x360.jpg Practice: New video footage released by the White House today shows Osama Bin Laden wearing a gold robe in what appears to be a propaganda video outtake




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF3720B00000578-138_196x296.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF372D700000578-676_196x296.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/07/article-1384573-0BF3727300000578-913_196x296.jpg



The terror leader is shown in several different outtakes from propaganda videos. In the centre image above, he is standing before a wooden armoire that U.S. intelligence says was found in the Pakistan compound

Officials said the clips shown to reporters were just part of the largest collection of senior terrorist materials ever collected.

The evidence seized during the raid also includes phone numbers and documents that officials hope will help break the back of the organization behind the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.
WHAT THE VIDEOS SHOW


VIDEO 1: An outtake from a propaganda video, it is said to be a complete but unreleased message to the American people.
It is dated sometime between October 9 and November 5, 2010, according to U.S. intelligence.
Bin Laden is shown sitting down, dressed in a gold robe. His grey beard is dyed black.

There is no audio but an official said he is condemning U.S. policy and capitalism.

VIDEO 2: Perhaps the most interesting of the videos. This footage shows Bin Laden, his beard grey, sitting on the dirty floor of the compound watching a television with video of his own images playing.

A TV screen shows a menu of channels from which he makes a selection using a remote control.
A video of the terror leader appears on the screen before the camera pans over to show Bin Laden watching himself.
He is wearing a black hat and is swathed in a blanket.

VIDEO 3: Another practice video shows Bin Laden, his beard dyed black, standing in front of what was described as a wooden armoire. Intelligence officials say they found the same armoire in the compound. The video has not been dated.

VIDEO 4: Another practice clip shows the terror chief wearing a white shirt with a T-shirt underneath. He is standing against a brown background. There is no date on the video.

VIDEO 5: In this practice video Bin laden is standing before a wrinkled sheet, wearing a gold robe and a white shirt. His beard is dyed. There is no date on the video.


Intelligence officials have known that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda monitored the news. But for years, when it was assumed that he was living in Pakistan's rugged, mountainous tribal region, some believed he might not be able to get real-time news.
After the CIA discovered Bin Laden's suburban compound, they realized that a satellite dish provided a television feed to Bin Laden's compound.

The video also reveals that Bin Laden had a computer in his home, though officials say there were no Internet or phone lines running from the house.
They emerged today as other video footage leaked to Al Jazeera showed the terror leader had been living in virtual squalor in Abottabad.

Strewn with rubbish and with paint peeling off the walls, the dirt-infested compound appears barely habitable and is a far cry from initial claims the compound was a sophisticated $1million hideaway.
The ramshackle structure resembles a building site and the pictures of the outside show steel rods protruding from the roof, suggesting it may have been incomplete.
Of course, some damage would have been caused during the American Navy Seal mission to capture the 9/11 mastermind, but the footage is still very revealing.
It was released today on the Al Jazeera English website and gives a shaky tour of what appears to be the inside of the main house, a few outbuildings and a small fruitless orchard.
The stash is part of a wealth of information collected during the U.S. raid that killed Bin Laden and four others last week.

The information suggests Bin Laden played a strong role in planning and directing attacks by Al-Qaeda and its affiliates in Yemen and Somalia, two senior officials said.

[mc_squared]

Just looking at pictures and video on BBC News from the US Department of Defence showing Bin Laden, grey beard and all flicking the channels. What's the chances he lands on babestation?

Osama bin channel surfing?:rolleyes:

Actually, I heard he was a big fan of The Simpsons. Doh!:P

[NumbersGirl]

What's a babestation.:laugh3:
Hey now, don't laugh, us unitedstatesians don't know the word babestation; I was gonna ask the same thing!
But then I just took a guess. And lovely google confirmed that my guess was right.

[Braddock]

It's classy stuff.

[Braddock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13318372
Was killing bin Laden legal?

After receiving news that a team of US Navy Seals had shot dead Osama Bin Laden at a compound in northern Pakistan, President Barack Obama announced that justice had been done.

The demise of the man held responsible for mass atrocities, including the 11 September 2001 attacks, was welcomed around the world.

But as the US narrative of the raid has developed - and changed - since Monday's raid, there have been growing questions about whether it was legal to kill the al-Qaeda leader.

At one level, these questions have focused on what happened during the operation at the building in Abbottabad in which Bin Laden was found.

"The issue here is whether what was done was an act of legitimate self-defence," said Benjamin Ferencz, an international law specialist who served as a prosecutor during the Nuremburg trials and argued that it would have been better to capture Bin Laden and send him to court.

"Killing a captive who poses no immediate threat is a crime under military law as well as all other law," he told the BBC World Service.

Putting the case for the legality of the raid on Wednesday, US Attorney General Eric Holder said it was "conducted in a way that was consistent with our law, with our values".

"If he had surrendered, attempted to surrender, I think we should obviously have accepted that, but there was no indication that he wanted to do that and therefore his killing was appropriate," he told the Senate judiciary committee.

No blow-by-blow account of what happened in the moments before Bin Laden was shot has been settled on.

US officials have suggested that Bin Laden may have been reaching for a weapon, and that the Navy Seals may have suspected that people in the compound were wearing suicide belts.

But they have also said Bin Laden was not carrying a weapon - after initially saying he was.

And they have told US media that just one person in the compound shot at the special forces team, in what appears to have been a fairly one-sided confrontation.

Legal experts have therefore asked whether the US forces were instructed to kill, and whether Bin Laden was offered a chance to surrender.

Like Mr Ferencz, British law professor Philippe Sands QC says it is impossible to make a definitive legal judgement without knowing precisely what happened. But he says the case for the raid's legality has been weakened.


"The question to ask is: were the measures taken in the actual situation that pertained reasonable and proportionate given the circumstances in which the [Navy Seals] found themselves?" he told the BBC.

"The facts for Bin Laden don't appear to easily meet that standard."

On a broader level, US officials have justified Bin Laden's killing as an act committed as part of an armed conflict with al-Qaeda.

Mr Holder said Bin Laden's killing was "an act of national self-defence", calling the al-Qaeda leader "a lawful military target" who had acknowledged his role in the 9/11 attacks.

"It's lawful to target an enemy commander in the field," he said.

Some legal experts have backed up that position.

"I don't think that this is an extrajudicial killing," Philip Bobbitt, a specialist on constitutional law and international security, told the BBC's World Tonight programme. "I think this is part of an armed conflict authorised by the United Nations, authorised by both houses of Congress."


But the fact that Bin Laden was killed in a normally quiet town, in a country with which the US is not at war and says it was not given prior warning of the raid, has also raised questions.

"As a matter of international law, one country is not free to enter another country apparently without the authorisation of that country, and intervene, whether to kidnap or kill a national of a third state," Mr Sands said.

He acknowledged that under what is known as the doctrine of necessity, where there is an "overriding threat to national security", such an act might not give rise to responsibility or liability.

But he said the difficulty with that argument was that it comes against a background of a rise in extrajudicial killings, including through the use of drones, and that this was not a "lawful direction to be taking".

The logical conclusion of any idea that Bin Laden could be killed as an enemy combatant was "that anyone associated with al-Qaeda in any country in the world can be taken out, can be executed," Mr Sands said.

"I think it's deeply troubling if we are indeed moving to a place where you can have a global assassination policy for those who are perceived to cause trouble," he added.

The UN special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, and the special rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism, Martin Scheinin, have raised a similar concern.

"In certain exceptional cases, use of deadly force may be permissible as a measure of last resort... including in operations against terrorists," they said in statement.

"However, the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment," they added.

"Actions taken by states in combating terrorism, especially in high profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life will be treated in future instances."

[chuck kottke]

Glad to see the judicial world is taking notice of this matter, and standing up for the right of life we all deserve, and the normal law enforcement process - if Bin Laden was not a threat to the officers' lives, then they should have apprehended him. I'm in agreement with Christof Hayns - terrorists should be dealt with as one would deal with criminals in the normal legal process of warrants, arrests, trials, and judicially decided punishments if found guilty of a crime.
thanks for posting this Greg! Now, I wonder if the U.S. will face any legal repercussions for this action.

[mc_squared]

This has already been discussed at length on various talk shows. Unless you were actually there at the time, you have no idea what actually transpired.
The Seals had to put their own safety first, and for all anyone knows, they might have felt bin Laden had his finger on the trigger of a bomb or something.
With all the suicide bombings which have taken place, this would have been a perfectly reasonable concern.
In that case, if they hadn't taken him out immediately, they could have all died.
Therefore, unless conclusive video evidence is released which shows bin Laden being pinned up against a wall and then shot, I don't see how anyone can say it was an "execution".
After all, by all accounts, he was given the chance to surrender, and refused to do so.
If he had surrendered and then been shot, it would have been a different matter entirely, of course.

[Braddock]

This has already been discussed at length on various talk shows. Unless you were actually there at the time, you have no idea what actually transpired.
The Seals had to put their own safety first, and for all anyone knows, they might have felt bin Laden had his finger on the trigger of a bomb or something.
With all the suicide bombings which have taken place, this would have been a perfectly reasonable concern.
In that case, if they hadn't taken him out immediately, they could have all died.
Therefore, unless conclusive video evidence is released which shows bin Laden being pinned up against a wall and then shot, I don't see how anyone can say it was an "execution".
After all, by all accounts, he was given the chance to surrender, and refused to do so.
If he had surrendered and then been shot, it would have been a different matter entirely, of course.

None of this means it shouldn't be investigated though. Particularly when it was filmed. You may indeed be correct, but there is no harm in the pursuit of the truth through legitimate means.

It is genuinely refreshing to see your insight though Mark. I mean that.

[mc_squared]

None of this means it shouldn't be investigated though. Particularly when it was filmed. You may indeed be correct, but there is no harm in the pursuit of the truth through legitimate means.

It is genuinely refreshing to see your insight though Mark. I mean that.

Fair enough. I have no problem with it being investigated, of course, but how on earth are you going to get an impartial investigation?
Can't see it happening.
The conspiracy theorists will still disregard any findings, just as they did with the death of Princess Di.:dozey:

[Braddock]

Fair enough. I have no problem with it being investigated, of course, but how on earth are you going to get an impartial investigation?
Can't see it happening.
The conspiracy theorists will still disregard any findings, just as they did with the death of Princess Di.:dozey:

The conspiracy theorists don't matter but will always exist, even when you have conclusive proof.

I wonder who would carry out the investigation. America might want to carry one out, Pakistan might, is there a global war court too (forgive my ignorance)? It will be very hard indeed to get people to part with their knowledge on the matter and classified information as they'll no doubt hide it behind National Security. We'll see how it plays out.

[mc_squared]

The conspiracy theorists don't matter but will always exist, even when you have conclusive proof.

I wonder who would carry out the investigation. America might want to carry one out, Pakistan might, is there a global war court too (forgive my ignorance)? It will be very hard indeed to get people to part with their knowledge on the matter and classified information as they'll no doubt hide it behind National Security. We'll see how it plays out.

Furthermore, if bin Laden had been captured, rather than killed, how could he have ever have got what could have been considered a "fair" trial?
I don't really see what it would have achieved.:dozey:
His supporters would never have accepted a "guilty" verdict anyway, as they regard his actions as war, not terrorism.

[Braddock]

Furthermore, if bin Laden had been captured, rather than killed, how could he have ever have got what could have been considered a "fair" trial?
I don't really see what it would have achieved.:dozey:
His supporters would never have accepted a "guilty" verdict anyway, as they regard his actions as war, not terrorism.

So we kill him then?
Interesting logic.