Does anybody else think Nelson Mandela is overrated?

[Braddock]

I mean, he was a terrorist wasn't he?

[Miss Lestrade]

Erm...he was? :uhoh2:

[Braddock]

he plotted to blow up a corrupt government
and since his release has admitted to violating human rights in the process

i have no problem with him, i just find it weird he is almost deified by so many people. to me it's like if somebody plotted an assassination attempt on bush or blair and anybody else that was in the building with them because of the illegal wars and going to jail, then in twenty years time it being found the wars were illegal so releasing them and hailing them a hero.

obviously that's over simplified but the whole thing seems really strange to me.

[Juanma]

hes underrated

[Braddock]

hes underrated

do continue
i'm not really in either camp, just sparking debate

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

hes underrated
He has his own day!
and I'm pretty sure a museum dedicated to him too :laugh4:

[Braddock]

he met the spice girls too!

[Destrokk]

I heard he does car commercials..


.. In Japan!

[juanif94]

:laugh3:

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

he met the spice girls too!
I wonder if there's a picture of that in his museum.

[MrMagpie]

I used to go to school with twins from South Africa. They were white and hated him.

[Braddock]

I wonder if there's a picture of that in his museum.

that and the 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder he collected whilst fighting against the government.

[Braddock]

I used to go to school with twins from South Africa. They were white and hated him.

they may have been racist. though not necessarily.

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

that and the 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder he collected whilst fighting against the government.
That's oddly specific there gregory.

[Braddock]

That's racist.

not necessarily
but very possible.
they may have hated him because he killed one of their relatives in his struggle against the corrupt government. i wouldn't say that was hatred based on race.

[Braddock]

That's oddly specific there gregory.

good ol' google

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

good ol' google
gotta love how trustworthy google is.

[Braddock]

Nope, it's 100% racist.

why?
they could well be racists and it could be racially motivated but from the information given how have you decided it was racist? all you know is two white south african twins hate nelson mandela.

[Braddock]

gotta love how trustworthy google is.

obviously

[Braddock]

You're a fun person.

arguing about semantics is much more fun than actual debate ;)
so what are your views?

[christopher Martin]

Nope, it's 100% racist.

........do you have inside information? if not then that's a ridiculous statement.

I dont know much about the corruptness of the government but im sure its was about a million times worse that the blair/bush government, and just for the record the wars were certainly not illlegal, Sadam was the one that broke international law. The UK & USA should be proud of the liberation of Iraq, now they can vote people into power, obviously there was an awful human cost but Sadam had inflicted much more on his own people and the Kurds, (the largest ethnic group to have no homeland)

Sorry to change the subject slightly but i had to express it.

[Braddock]

........do you have inside information? if not then that's a ridiculous statement.

I dont know much about the corruptness of the government but im sure its was about a million times worse that the blair/bush government, and just for the record the wars were certainly not illlegal, Sadam was the one that broke international law. The UK & USA should be proud of the liberation of Iraq, now they can vote people into power, obviously there was an awful human cost but Sadam had inflicted much more on his own people and the Kurds, (the largest ethnic group to have no homeland)

Sorry to change the subject slightly but i had to express it.

wow, well done :rolleyes:

let's get back on topic

[christopher Martin]

why?
they could well be racists and it could be racially motivated but from the information given how have you decided it was racist? all you know is two white south african twins hate nelson mandela.

spot on my friend

[ricardo]

Violence is necessary sometimes. And he did something to free his country from slavery and that medieval like system. So I think he gets fair enough attention.
Fail thread.

[hotdensestate]

What the hell did Mandela do besides sit in prison??

[Braddock]

Violence is necessary sometimes. And he did something to free his country from slavery and that medieval like system. So I think he gets fair enough attention.
Fail thread.

i just think it's weird terrorism is ok if you sympathise with the perpetrators, but if you don't agree it's the most evil thing in the world. and as for the violence, i don't agree that murder is acceptable personally unless in self defence.

[christopher Martin]

wow, well done :rolleyes:

let's get back on topic

lol im sorry, i cant get back on track because i dont know enough about the subject. I know that the SA government favoured white people and was guilty of racism so I have no sympathy for them, as for him being a terrorist I think if it happened the other way round in the UK/USA then we would support another mandela. Again im totally ignorant of the actual event, i dont even know if he went against the government for racism, but you've inspired me to educate myself.

[ricardo]

There wasn't any other way for them to gain freedom.

[pickle]

I'm still not exactly sure who he was. Some guy who sat in jail for freedom or something? And helped the rugby team. :awesome:

[christopher Martin]

i just think it's weird terrorism is ok if you sympathise with the perpetrators, but if you don't agree it's the most evil thing in the world. and as for the violence, i don't agree that murder is acceptable personally unless in self defence.

yeh interesting point. I think if i were oppressed im my own country and treated like a second class citizen that was ruining my quality of like i would want to stop that happening, if murder was the only way then so be it, Id rather that than watch my family and everyone around me be degraded and bullied.

[christopher Martin]

I'm still not exactly sure who he was. Some guy who sat in jail for freedom or something? And helped the rugby team. :awesome:

wow you know even less than me!

[MrMagpie]

Yeah I wouldn't say they were racist. I never got into asking them why they didn't like him. But I was in elementary and didn't care.

[Braddock]

There wasn't any other way for them to gain freedom.

i respect this and i am all for what he fought for, i'm just confused about the way he is now perceived considering the way he went about it. as far as i'm aware, the new setup that he fought for didn't make terrorism and what mandela did legal.

i think he deserves respect for fighting for what he believed in and i agree with the cause he fought for, but he has won the nobel peace prize and is possibly the most respected man in the world. i just don't get it

[hotdensestate]

Well, he was one of the people responsible for removing the apartheid government wasn't he??

[christopher Martin]

Yeah I wouldn't say they were racist. I never got into asking them why they didn't like him. But I was in elementary and didn't care.

I dont know about everyone else but i wasnt even aware of racism at that age.

[ricardo]

i respect this and i am all for what he fought for, i'm just confused about the way he is now perceived considering the way he went about it. as far as i'm aware, the new setup that he fought for didn't make terrorism and what mandela did legal.

i think he deserves respect for fighting for what he believed in and i agree with the cause he fought for, but he has won the nobel peace prize and is possibly the most respected man in the world. i just don't get it
He wasn't a terrorist, just because the government says someone is a menace doesn't mean he's a criminal.
Well, he was one of the people responsible for removing the apartheid government wasn't he??

Yes he was like a great symbol of the cause.

[Braddock]

He wasn't a terrorist, just because the government says someone is a menace doesn't mean he's a criminal.

he plotted to blow up the government

[christopher Martin]

he plotted to blow up the government

But if the jews had plotted to blow up the nazi government would that have been terrorism? i know they are different but im just trying to make that point.

[christopher Martin]

It's like saying Luke Skywalker is a bad guy.

I agree

[ricardo]

Well I would have done the same it the government were composed of a bunch of racist morons.

[Braddock]

But if the jews had plotted to blow up the nazi government would that have been terrorism? i know they are different but im just trying to make that point.

exactly my point
it's all about perception
had german prisoners of war escaped by murdering guards they would have been heroes on one side and evil on the other side.

there is a slight difference there as the jews were being killed in their millions whereas mandela and the people he was fighting for were slaves (which is awful of course).

it just all seems a little hypocritical and contradictory to have him as a figurehead for peace when he did what he did. i am not against what he did in particular, just how he has been deified.

[Braddock]

Well I would have done the same it the government were composed of a bunch of racist morons.

fair enough, but would you expect to receive the nobel peace prize and live the life mandela has lived after your release?

[ricardo]

Sure.
But he brought up other ideals, and he did not actually blow up the government nor organized a bloody revolution.

[christopher Martin]

exactly my point
it's all about perception
had german prisoners of war escaped by murdering guards they would have been heroes on one side and evil on the other side.

there is a slight difference there as the jews were being killed in their millions whereas mandela and the people he was fighting for were slaves (which is awful of course).

it just all seems a little hypocritical and contradictory to have him as a figurehead for peace when he did what he did. i am not against what he did in particular, just how he has been deified.

Ok i take your point of perspective, and of course the holocaust was tenfold times worse but the universal perspective now is both those governments were totally wrong, which is why he is respected.

[Braddock]

Sure.
But he brought up other ideals, and he did not actually blow up the government nor organized a bloody revolution.

he only didn't blow them up because he was arrested for plotting to. had he not had to go on the run the odds are he would have done.

if a guy got done for plotting a terrorist attack in america do you think he would be let off? he was the leader of an anti-government group. if that isn't trying to organise a revolution i don't know what is.

[christopher Martin]

He fought for basic human rights, I think he deserves all the respect he gets.

[ricardo]

This ^^
Besudes It's not like USA segregates people like SA did.

[Braddock]

Ok i take your point of perspective, and of course the holocaust was tenfold times worse but the universal perspective now is both those governments were totally wrong, which is why he is respected.

but why is he respected so much and this side of his life not spoken about? he walked around with a gun which he fortunately didn't have to use.

certain extremist muslims believe that they are right in their attacks on america, so is it ok for them to do what they do?

my point is perspective doesn't matter. if you plot to try and blow up the government you don't deserve the nobel peace price. gandhi on the other hand i can understand.

[Braddock]

He fought for basic human rights, I think he deserves all the respect he gets.

he has admitted to breaking human rights himself in trying to achieve these human rights

[christopher Martin]

he has admitted to breaking human rights himself in trying to achieve these human rights

Ok firstly you cannot compare the muslim agenda with mandela's, One is based on a book, the other on the struggle for Human rights and freedom. America and the old SA government are not in the same category.

[christopher Martin]

he has admitted to breaking human rights himself in trying to achieve these human rights

I dont think there is anything wrong or immoral with that if an entire people are being oppressed and racially abused?

[Braddock]

Ok firstly you cannot compare the muslim agenda with mandela's, One is based on a book, the other on the struggle for Human rights and freedom. America and the old SA government are not in the same category.

my point is on when terrorism becomes acceptable and then how far a person can be respected for those actions.

just because a person believes something is right doesn't mean it is right, as is shown by muslim extremists. plotting to kill government officials would have worked for mandela and that became his aim.

i think he should be free, since he served too much time in jail for a man who clearly is not a threat to society, but why i find it a confusing precedent to set to have him as pretty much the most respected human alive. i think he should be known, i just find the whole thing that surrounds him as massively overrated.

[christopher Martin]

he has admitted to breaking human rights himself in trying to achieve these human rights

Also just to change the subject slightly, how comes you are still awake if you are from the UK? I thought i was the only one lol!

[Braddock]

I dont think there is anything wrong or immoral with that if an entire people are being oppressed and racially abused?

two wrongs make a right then?
i'm not saying they don't, just wondering what your opinion is.

[Braddock]

Also just to change the subject slightly, how comes you are still awake if you are from the UK? I thought i was the only one lol!

i am actually heading to sleep right now


since i'm leaving i don't want my words twisted too much whilst i'm asleep.
1. i agree with what he fought for.
2. i think he should be a free man. i think he should be remembered for what he did.
3. i don't understand why he won the nobel PEACE prize and is the most respected man alive considering what he plotted to do and the murders that the group he led carried out.

[christopher Martin]

two wrongs make a right then?
i'm not saying they don't, just wondering what your opinion is.

In this case yes because the alternative would be for one wrong to be inflicted indefinately. The two wrongs are not equal either, Mandela was attempting to stop a wrong. Its different from revenge as the saying implies.

[christopher Martin]

i am actually heading to sleep right now


since i'm leaving i don't want my words twisted too much whilst i'm asleep.
1. i agree with what he fought for.
2. i think he should be a free man. i think he should be remembered for what he did.
3. i don't understand why he won the nobel PEACE prize and is the most respected man alive considering what he plotted to do and the murders that the group he led carried out.

Yeh me too, im quite tired now, I understand your position, I think that you are uncomfortable accepting violence as neccessary in this case. To that i would say look at the first & second world wars, wouldnt you agree that the allied forces are heros for liberating the occupied countries and defeating the nazis, even at the human cost of the soldiers and civilians? I think that fighting and killing can be justified in certain circumstances, mandela is one of those cases in my opinion.

[ricardo]

But allied forces made lot of unjustified atrocities, but this is a a different topic.

[christopher Martin]

But allied forces made lot of unjustified atrocities, but this is a a different topic.

Ok but the main point is still relevant, that they fought a war to save people.

out of general curiosity what atrocities did they commit? I know they executed unarmed german soldiers at some concentration camps but to be honest I think thats totally justified.

[ricardo]

Justified? I don't think so, because then they were becoming like them. Russian soldiers did massive rapes on lots of villages, german or not. And even if they were german, it wasn't their fault a totalitarian bastard was wrecking havoc around Europe.

[christopher Martin]

I would have rather died than be part of gassing entire families. I think the nazis deserve to die if they kill innocents. I dont think that makes me anywhere near as bad as a nazi?

Edit: actually i think you may be right. We are the good guys so I think we ought to take the higher moral ground, But other than that I dont see a problem with it, If somebody killed a relative of mine i would want them to die painfully, Is that wrong?

[ricardo]

But the german people in general? Citizens I mean?

[christopher Martin]

But the german people in general? Citizens I mean?

Oh no, of course that is totally wrong and barbaric, i didnt know you meant the them. And yes I agree they were only complicit to the regime because of Hitler and the Gestapo etc...

[Josh42]

That's racist.

not necessarily
but very possible.
they may have hated him because he killed one of their relatives in his struggle against the corrupt government. i wouldn't say that was hatred based on race.

good ol' google

Nope, it's 100% racist.

why?
they could well be racists and it could be racially motivated but from the information given how have you decided it was racist? all you know is two white south african twins hate nelson mandela.

http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss22/jonconklin/thats_racist_animated1.gif

He wasn't a terrorist, just because the government says someone is a menace doesn't mean he's a criminal.


Yes he was like a great symbol of the cause.

Spot on! Anyone can be labeled as a terrorist.

[ViVA Child]

I dont mind him so much.. he's ...eh
Im more of a Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi person.

"What do you think of Western Civilization"
"I think it would be a wonderful idea"

:laugh3:

[indanomati]

........do you have inside information? if not then that's a ridiculous statement.

I dont know much about the corruptness of the government but im sure its was about a million times worse that the blair/bush government, and just for the record the wars were certainly not illlegal, Sadam was the one that broke international law. The UK & USA should be proud of the liberation of Iraq, now they can vote people into power, obviously there was an awful human cost but Sadam had inflicted much more on his own people and the Kurds, (the largest ethnic group to have no homeland)

Sorry to change the subject slightly but i had to express it.
Haha, man. You'll never learn..

[hotdensestate]

Greg you're so wrong. What he did empowered peace in South Africa, you can't always be peaceful to achieve peace.

[mrs. chris martin]

HE SERVED ALMOST 30 YEARS IN PRISON FOR TRYING TO INTEGRATE A COUNTRY WHERE 15% OF THE POPULATION OPPRESSED THE OTHER 85% !!!! HE'S COMPLETELY UNDERRATED

it's so sad that there are soooooooo many kids in my school & old that don't even know who he is. i was just like "seriously??!"

[Rivers of Avalon]

i don't care :smug:

[christopher Martin]

Haha, man. You'll never learn..

well teach me then, what have i said that you disagree with?

[mc_squared]

You can also get a Nelson Mandela "sat-nav"....................... :P

[christopher Martin]

You can also get a Nelson Mandela "sat-nav"....................... :P

LOL really?? It would be cool if it spoke in his voice

[indanomati]

well teach me then, what have i said that you disagree with?
What kind of fucked up liberation is that you see in Iraq..?

[christopher Martin]

What kind of fucked up liberation is that you see in Iraq..?

The kind that before the war they had a murderous dictatorship, now they have a government. How is that "fucked up"?

[indanomati]

Yeah.. cause their government is so good and functioning perfectly now. And sooo little people died there and still dying.. yeah..

And why won't they leave if they have a government and all now?

[Braddock]

Greg you're so wrong. What he did empowered peace in South Africa, you can't always be peaceful to achieve peace.

i keep saying i agree with what he fought for, just don't know why he is seen as a symbol for peace and this side of his life rarely spoken about. he's wheeled out to every major event and all the western world glorifies him in a form of positive racism. it's not as though south africa's peaceful now anyway.

[aniskywalker]

hes underrated

:thumbsup:

[Braddock]

^ impossible

[aniskywalker]

Why?

[ricardo]

The kind that before the war they had a murderous dictatorship, now they have a government. How is that "fucked up"?

And they used to have oil as well.

[christopher Martin]

And they used to have oil as well.

No Sadam and the terrorists did, they people recieved nothing. Sadam spent all that wealth on palaces and developing weapons, thats a fact, you can find the information anywhere.

[christopher Martin]

^ impossible

lol i agree with this, he couldnt become anymore respected, he would become a living god.

[christopher Martin]

Yeah.. cause their government is so good and functioning perfectly now. And sooo little people died there and still dying.. yeah..

And why won't they leave if they have a government and all now?

Your missing the point, I conceded there was a tragic human cost but if you come back in 20 years you will see an entirely new country that will have benefited beyond measure from the removal of Sadam. To simply answer you second point, There are people that want to take Iraq backwards into corruptness, the war isnt over yet.

[Braddock]

i don't think there is any way we can predict what things will be like in twenty years time in such turbulent places like iraq
so many things can happen

[christopher Martin]

i don't think there is any way we can predict what things will be like in twenty years time in such turbulent places like iraq
so many things can happen

We cannot accurately predict no, but by looking around the world we can see that the removal of dictatorship and the implementation of democracy leads to a more stable, prosperous environment. perhaps twenty years is a bit soon, but I am convinced that Iraq will benefit from the liberation, I think alot of people have heard so much about the failures of the war that they no longer realise that the removal of Sadam was a great event, and that he had held a tight grip over the wealth, health and lives of the Iraqi people. He defied international law many times, he probably was developing WOMD despite the independant findings, (One of Iraqs chief scientists was killed after he made claims that there were WOMD). They were just good at hiding the evidence.

[hotdensestate]

i keep saying i agree with what he fought for, just don't know why he is seen as a symbol for peace and this side of his life rarely spoken about. he's wheeled out to every major event and all the western world glorifies him in a form of positive racism. it's not as though south africa's peaceful now anyway.

He's seen as a symbol of peace because he integrated an entire hate-filled country, ergo, causing peace.

[Braddock]

He's seen as a symbol of peace because he integrated an entire hate-filled country, ergo, causing peace.

there was never really peace though

[Macintosh]

Its funny for one reason. Here in Ukraine we've had WC diary at the national channel where the whole studio was stylized by colorful portraits of Mandela

[Josh42]

What kind of fucked up liberation is that you see in Iraq..?

Yeah.. cause their government is so good and functioning perfectly now. And sooo little people died there and still dying.. yeah..

And why won't they leave if they have a government and all now?

No Sadam and the terrorists did, they people recieved nothing. Sadam spent all that wealth on palaces and developing weapons, thats a fact, you can find the information anywhere.

Fun fact: There weren't "terrorists" in Iraq until the US overtook it. We fucked up their country worse than it was before. While I agree with you that their situation needed help, and Sadam was a terrible leader, the US solution just made things worse. Arm the citizens, educate them, train them, whatever. They could have taken down the B'ath Party themselves, and things would be a lot better over there right now.

[christopher Martin]

Fun fact: There weren't "terrorists" in Iraq until the US overtook it. We fucked up their country worse than it was before. While I agree with you that their situation needed help, and Sadam was a terrible leader, the US solution just made things worse. Arm the citizens, educate them, train them, whatever. They could have taken down the B'ath Party themselves, and things would be a lot better over there right now.

It was a breeding ground for Al Qaeda way before the US & UK liberated it. How could the US & UK arm the citizens without overthrowing Sadam though? is that what you are saying? Or are you saying otherthrow Sadam, then get out of there and give the citizens help on how to do it?

[indanomati]

Your missing the point, I conceded there was a tragic human cost but if you come back in 20 years you will see an entirely new country that will have benefited beyond measure from the removal of Sadam. To simply answer you second point, There are people that want to take Iraq backwards into corruptness, the war isnt over yet.
And it will never will. Until all of the oil there is slurped up.

I know what Saddam did. I've heard and seen plenty of footage to know. And whatever he did it cannot be even compared to what's happening there now. And there is no actual excuse for it no matter what the media is trying to tell you. The whole country is broken into tiny little pieces and it will take a lot more than just 20 years to fix it up.
And to your surprise there are plenty of Iraqi refugees who dream of the days when Iraq was under the rule of Saddam than to what's happening now.

[christopher Martin]

And it will never will. Until all of the oil there is slurped up.

I know what Saddam did. I've heard and seen plenty of footage to know. And whatever he did it cannot be even compared to what's happening there now. And there is no actual excuse for it no matter what the media is trying to tell you. The whole country is broken into tiny little pieces and it will take a lot more than just 20 years to fix it up.
And to your surprise there are plenty of Iraqi refugees who dream of the days when Iraq was under the rule of Saddam than to what's happening now.

Ok, I can believe that, I think its a tradegy that one country can go through so much. I dont know what the solution is in that case. Hopefully they can get some sort of quality of life in the distant future. The one thing i would say is that the UK & USA had no selfish intentions, i really do not believe it was for oil, I think the people that spread that are the same type of people that think 9/11 was an inside job.

[ricardo]

No Sadam and the terrorists did, they people recieved nothing. Sadam spent all that wealth on palaces and developing weapons, thats a fact, you can find the information anywhere.

LMFAO terrorits. And lol what's the difference between Sadam keeping the oil and the americans?
In addition, did Iraq ever asked for help to the americans?

[christopher Martin]

LMFAO terrorits. And lol what's the difference between Sadam keeping the oil and the americans?
In addition, did Iraq ever asked for help to the americans?

Al qaeda were in Iraq, that is fact. They are a terrorist organisation. The Americans are using the money from the oil to rebuild Iraq, thats the major difference, no more lavish palaces while people starve and die. Why would a dictatorship ask for help? come on man, you need better arguments that that!

[christopher Martin]

Lol this thread has been totally hijacked!

[Braddock]

Al qaeda were in Iraq, that is fact. They are a terrorist organisation. The Americans are using the money from the oil to rebuild Iraq, thats the major difference, no more lavish palaces while people starve and die. Why would a dictatorship ask for help? come on man, you need better arguments that that!

you are naive

[ricardo]

you are naive

First time I concur with you in this thread, Greg.

[christopher Martin]

you are naive

LOL maybe, I dont think all the money is going to the Iraqis, I think a portion is funding the war, a portion is funding the rebuilding, and yeh maybe the americans are making profit. I should have elaborated. Its not black and white though thats for sure, the americans arent just taking all the wealth, to think that you must be living in cuckoo land.

[ricardo]

They are just wrecking havoc there.

[Braddock]

you should go to wikileaks more if you back the cause so much

[BirdOfPrey]

I don't care. lol

[christopher Martin]

you should go to wikileaks more if you back the cause so much

Im not a hardcore supporter or anything i just think Sadam HAD to be removed for the sake of the entire world, let alone the citizens of Iraq. I have made concessions in this debate, before I believed that the lives of the Iraqi people were comparitively better off, but now I have taken what you have all said on board, I sense a bit of hostility towards my views Braddock? Maybe i'm wrong, perhaps you view my comments as right wing or pro war? Let me assure you I am neither. I just believe Sadam was a real threat to everyone around him and by breaking international law on 5 separate occasions he basically invited the war. Now the real question is, assuming you agree with my previous statement, what would have been the best move directly after his removal? Get out of Iraq straight away or stay till the country is more secure (that was the idea anyway), Well i really dont know.

[Wherrwhfer]

I love the spice girls too!

Hhahahahahhaha

[Natster]

Interesting, its a joke how little educated you all are about South Africa and its history, yet here it is, being discussed as though any of you have a clue about the apartheid era, the atrocities of the government of the day, and people like Mandela. As a white South African, sure, I was fearful of what would happen when Mandela was released, but he came out of prison with a heart filled with forgiveness and united a nation. The fact that his dream of an equal nation is presently being shattered every day by the very people that fought so hard for, and brought into power, is now South Africa's current atrocity! Reverse racism and corruption have hailed again, as Mandela legacy slowly starts to fade!!

[christopher Martin]

Interesting, its a joke how little educated you all are about South Africa and its history, yet here it is, being discussed as though any of you have a clue about the apartheid era, the atrocities of the government of the day, and people like Mandela. As a white South African, sure, I was fearful of what would happen when Mandela was released, but he came out of prison with a heart filled with forgiveness and united a nation. The fact that his dream of an equal nation is presently being shattered every day by the very people that fought so hard for, and brought into power, is now South Africa's current atrocity! Reverse racism and corruption have hailed again, as Mandela legacy slowly starts to fade!!

I said at the start that I was ignorant of the whole event, this encouraged me to read up on it, I never claimed to be an expert but based on what i know i began to form an opinion.
Its interesting to hear your views as you are South African, out of curiousity do you still think there is an element of racial separation in your society? Obviously there will be individuals but I mean in general.
Also you say you were worried about when he came out of prison and that he was sorry for his actions, so you feel his actions were unjustified?
Also you mention positive discrimination, I think this is happening everywhere in the world right now, its utterly absurd.

[Braddock]

Im not a hardcore supporter or anything i just think Sadam HAD to be removed for the sake of the entire world, let alone the citizens of Iraq. I have made concessions in this debate, before I believed that the lives of the Iraqi people were comparitively better off, but now I have taken what you have all said on board, I sense a bit of hostility towards my views Braddock? Maybe i'm wrong, perhaps you view my comments as right wing or pro war? Let me assure you I am neither. I just believe Sadam was a real threat to everyone around him and by breaking international law on 5 separate occasions he basically invited the war. Now the real question is, assuming you agree with my previous statement, what would have been the best move directly after his removal? Get out of Iraq straight away or stay till the country is more secure (that was the idea anyway), Well i really dont know.

the 'could you do better? no, well shut up' theory doesn't work? that's like a professional sportsman not performing to his abilities and fucking up all the time but not trying to rectify things. he's still better than all the fans but they have a right to be annoyed. i'm not a politician so i'm not privy to all of the information that they receive however i do know that there are several other countries who have behaved in similar ways who have not been invaded by the US.

do you honestly think that iraq were going to take over the world with their weapons of mass destruction? they are small fry in this world. and don't go on about how they hid the weapons. there is no real evidence that they existed. rumours and unusual behaviour, but nothing that would stand up in the court of law. i'm not saying sadam didn't have to go, but why is it up to the US to sort it out? and why use such extreme methods which have clearly not gone to plan?

[Braddock]

I said at the start that I was ignorant

so why do you talk with such authority?

i talk with authority because i'm a bit of a prick when it comes to arguing with morons and enjoy watching them squirm, but you seem like a decent guy so i don't know how you became so militant in your views on him. when you first came in you looked like you were ready to learn, either way, but contribute through debate, but all of a sudden you became positive of all the answers. seriously, it's like you read one article on the internet and your mind was decided.

i began by asking questions as to why he is seen like this and then all of a sudden you joined a few others in being vehement that he was amazing (which he may well be). so i rose to your sheep like quality of following (which i regret) by putting less structure into my argument and taking more time to make you look like a fool instead.

[christopher Martin]

do you honestly think that iraq were going to take over the world with their weapons of mass destruction? they are small fry in this world. and don't go on about how they hid the weapons. there is no real evidence that they existed. rumours and unusual behaviour, but nothing that would stand up in the court of law. i'm not saying sadam didn't have to go, but why is it up to the US to sort it out? and why use such extreme methods which have clearly not gone to plan?

I think the only way the world could say with certainty that Iraq was dissarmed was by checking for ourselves, You must realise that the weapons inspectorate do not have unlimited access to the look around, the only way we can assertain for certain that Sadam and his regime do not pose a threat is to check for ourselves.
Are you aware of Sadams comments on the Invasion/iradication of Kuwait? He said he had regrets, He regretted invaded Kuwait before he had acquired a nuclear bomb, This crackpot dictator posed a threat to everyone around him and the rest of the world in my honest opinion. He sat on one of the richest oil fields on earth and what do you think that money went on?
I know you said you realise Sadam had to go but just let my try to justify why I think it is up to the US (and the rest of the world actually) to remove him.

There are laws that all nations must abide by or they will lose their sovereignty, Iraq broke the following,
1. Violations of the genocide convention which the US have signed. It mandates that the US & other nations must move to punish the offending nation.
2. Violations of the non-proliferation treaty, Iraq has used WMDs on its own territory and the territory of others.
3. Aiding and abetting national terrorists groups, Iraq is guilty of this beyond count.
4. Occupying the territory of other nations, which they have done in the past, present and planned to in the future.

So I think that the nations of the world have an obligation to uphold the basic principles of law.

[Braddock]

lol, too long to read

[christopher Martin]

so why do you talk with such authority?

i talk with authority because i'm a bit of a prick when it comes to arguing with morons and enjoy watching them squirm, but you seem like a decent guy so i don't know how you became so militant in your views on him. when you first came in you looked like you were ready to learn, either way, but contribute through debate, but all of a sudden you became positive of all the answers. seriously, it's like you read one article on the internet and your mind was decided.

i began by asking questions as to why he is seen like this and then all of a sudden you joined a few others in being vehement that he was amazing (which he may well be). so i rose to your sheep like quality of following (which i regret) by putting less structure into my argument and taking more time to make you look like a fool instead.

lol the most backhanded complement of all time, Im a moron but a decent guy, thanks. My mind was made up about the war long long ago, I started off thinking that it was a total mistake, but then i read about things like Sadam making relatives of publicly executed citizens applaud as they watched or they would kill another relative, I read about the 180,000 Kurds gassed, I read about people seeing Sadams army coming over the horizon and slaughtering indiscriminately. I cannot imagine what it must be like the have the government condone murder, I cannot imagine an opressive totalitarian state with a psychopathic dictator.

On Mandela I already explained why I gave my view, its directly after the quote you mined. It also answers the last part of your reply, as to why i suddenly began thinking he wasnt overrated, I read through the events, formed a fair minded, logical decision and began to express my views, thats all, I wasnt trying to just go against you, I wasnt trying to be a sheep, I just thought I would explain my thoughts.

Im glad to hear your very last comments, all I can add is that I never want to come across as ignorant or arrogant, I am always open to better ideas, its how I learn. Also for the record im not American.

[Braddock]

too long to read

[christopher Martin]

lol, too long to read

I should have condensed it perhaps.

[Braddock]

I should have condensed it perhaps.

too short to care

[christopher Martin]

too long to read

Condensed,

Sadam broke laws. US cannot allow. Murder, innocent lives lost through Sadam. Immoral to leave people to suffer. Im not arrogant.

Hows that?

[Braddock]

Condensed,

Sadam broke laws. US cannot allow. Murder, innocent lives lost through Sadam. Immoral to leave people to suffer. Im not arrogant.

Hows that?

bit longer

[christopher Martin]

too short to care

one moment you seem to care, the next you are not interested in anything, I havent got time for this. I would rather talk to my dog.

[Braddock]

one moment you seem to care, the next you are not interested in anything, I havent got time for this. I would rather talk to my dog.

too long to read

[christopher Martin]

too long to read

too hard to read more like, How did you manage to read all those other posts, i mean thats alot of information, maybe your brain goes all fuzzy when alot of information tries to get in?

[christopher Martin]

I could have argued from your side better than you did, its actually hilarious, you know a few tiny bits of information from the media, fucking classic.

[Braddock]

:kiss:

[christopher Martin]

:kiss:

hahahaha you loser, poor Braddock has been spoilt since he was a child, he cannot take somebody else having another opinion and not being able to think of a comeback. poor baby braddock. you can always improve your argument by doing something called "learning" its very interesting.

[Braddock]

what on earth are you talking about?
that's the first post of yours i've read in a little while. you still going on about me? you don't learn. i'll just keep going



:):):):):)
:wink3::wink3::wink3::wink3::wink3:
:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

[christopher Martin]

hmm so how comes you keep checking this thread? its basically dead, you read my posts but you are just too spoilt to admit you dont have a clue. you need to be more humble or you are going to remain a total prick for the rest of your life.

[Braddock]

:rolleyes:
read back in the thread and see how many people agree with you
then look at the amount of people who laughed at you

the only thing people agree with you on is the mandela things and that is their prerogative, however that is not them agreeing with you, it's you agreeing with them. at the start you said you didn't know, then all of a sudden began agreeing with others.

incidentally, back to an earlier point, i don't understand why racism would explain my stance on mandela. if i was a racist i'd have no respect for him. i have clearly stated i just don't see why he is the most respected man alive when it comes to peace. must have said that about ten times. but you twist words.

anyway, i have had my fun with you. it's been funny watching you misinterprate and bitch. i'm not the one being spoilt. i have my opinions, you have yours but you get so worked up if i question anything, it's hilarious. i'm done talking, i've made my points. i'll just keep poking you with a stick and laughing



:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[christopher Martin]

no i formed my own opinions on Mandela, But even if i had been convinced by others it would have been because they made a better case than yours.
The war is highly unpopular, I expect nothing less. Glad you had fun, I finally get to see your true intentions shining through.

and with regard to poking me, go ahead, knock yourself out kid

[Braddock]

poke

[Natster]

I said at the start that I was ignorant of the whole event, this encouraged me to read up on it, I never claimed to be an expert but based on what i know i began to form an opinion.
Its interesting to hear your views as you are South African, out of curiousity do you still think there is an element of racial separation in your society? Obviously there will be individuals but I mean in general.
Also you say you were worried about when he came out of prison and that he was sorry for his actions, so you feel his actions were unjustified?
Also you mention positive discrimination, I think this is happening everywhere in the world right now, its utterly absurd.

To answer your questions, in my mind, there sadly seems to be shift from what started out just after he was released as a hopeful outlook towards putting the past behind us, and living as one nation, to the realisation that we have a lot of issues to work through, and racial separation and competition will still be rife, as long as we hold onto the past.

When I said he came out of prison with a heart of forgiveness, I did not mean that he was sorry for what he did, I meant that he held no grudges against the white people and instead of taking revenge, he worked to unify us. Can you imagine, a man who fought for freedom, jailed for a lifetime for that and then rising to power and saying lets put it all behind us and be one. He must be so sad that everything he put his life on the line for, and all the effort he put into making this country incredible is being torn apart by the very political party that he helped to put on the map! A party that is riddled with fat cats and corruption, bent on making the white people pay. Not cool!! :\