THE AGE OF STUPID?

[Heiner]

http://www.ageofstupid.net/

Are you among the "stupid" ones? Do you think climate prognosis' are hysterical?
Do you feel responsible? What do you do about it? Do you give a shit?
Good night guys. :kiss:

http://the-wave.org.uk/
^ This is a neat example of action, I think.

[Reilly]

Hate to be the one who says this, but we're just doomed. Even if we do somehow solve the problem of climate change in the next handful of decades, over-population is a much bigger problem. Within the next few years there will be 7 billion people on earth, that means that since the 50's the population has increased 3.5 times! If that continues (And theres no reason why it shouldnt) then the planet simply wont have anywhere near enough natural resources to survive.

[Heiner]

Yeah, you're right, but I don't think, that this could excuse us from trying to at least fuck things up
as gracefully as possible. I love your siggy.

[MrLick]

Climate change has been happening since the earth began. I know we like to think ourselves as great, but were not changing the climate.

[an angel]

I'll let my great-great-grandchildren worry about this. :nice:

[Heiner]

You think it's all being hysterical?

[Heiner]

I'll let my great-great-grandchildren worry about this. :nice:

Cool attitude. :nice:

[MrLick]

You think it's all being hysterical?

It's a scam by elitist to get more money and power. Let's focus on real environmental issues, not fake climate change. If the amount of money and time was spent on something real instead of "global warming" or "global cooling", we could actually make progress.

[Heiner]

What are the real environmental issues then?

[MrLick]

Over-fishing, massive amounts of waste in the ocean and rivers. Pollution that creates cancer and other health problems. None of those will be solved if we give money to liars who want power.

[Heiner]

Who are those elitist liars? What do they want to do with that power?

And it's not about the climate alone, hell, it's not that black and white.

[MrLick]

Who are those elitist liars? What do they want to do with that power?

And it's not about the climate alone, hell, it's not that black and white.

Governments and scientist who stand to make billions and gain more authority. The recent emails coming out show many of them are willing to change data to get their way.

Humans are idiots, who will always be victims to scams of fear. It's sad but true.

[Reilly]

Yeah, you're right, but I don't think, that this could excuse us from trying to at least fuck things up
as gracefully as possible.

I agree but from just briefly looking at that website, I hate this partonising way that people are going about campaigning about climate change. Granted, I know nothing about the film (Partly because the site gives no real insight into what makes this film unique) but I hate me and every other person in the western world being lumped into the 'Age of Stupid' in such a vague way.

OK so it makes sense that I boil exactly as much water as I need in a kettle, that I allow hot food to cool on the table instead of the fridge, meanwhile tons of toxic waste is being pumped into the Pacific, airplanes are spewing carbon dioxide flying around over my head, boatloads of 'recycling' is being shipped to China to sit in a landfill, am I really going to make a difference?

At this stage the only chance of reversing climate change is to deeply invest in political campaigning and the most important thing of all is to bring to account companies based within developed means operating in countries that have corrupt governments and couldn't give a shit about how they operate.

It all comes down to pure human greed, and unfortunately the richest people on earth are often the most ignorant, they don't realise they dont give a shit about their grandchildren or the survival of the human race, but thats the reality of it.

Id be naive to think that these powerful people's way of thinking is going to u-turn within the next decade.

BUT- if all of that did happen, we'd still be overpopulated, as I mentioned in my last post. So I hate to be so gloomy, but I can't see it any other way.

And thanks for liking my siggy :nice:

Climate change has been happening since the earth began. I know we like to think ourselves as great, but were not changing the climate.

'Global warming' is a different thing, and although it would still be happening without human beings intervention, we are definately speeding up the process of it, thats what people are concerned about.

[MrLick]

'Global warming' is a different thing, and although it would still be happening without human beings intervention, we are definately speeding up the process of it, thats what people are concerned about.

Solar activity plays a larger role. We've been cooling since 1998. Ice is expanding and polar bear population has increased 5 fold since 1979. Create a problem or illusion of it and become the only solution is the way to become/stay wealthy and powerful.

[MrLick]

Remember Reilly, terrorist, jews, swine flu, y2k, bird flue, sars are going to kill you unless you give up more money and freedom.

[Reilly]

Thats strange, The Age of Stupid part 2/3 just started on BBC4 in the UK

[MrLick]

It's funny how the people screaming the loudest about this create copious amounts of pollution. Like the conference in Copenhagen where they all fly in their private jets and cars creating massive amounts of the things that are "causing global warming". If they practiced what they preached, I'd be more inclined to listen. But you can tell it's a fraud by elitist when they want everyone else to live a way but them.

[Heiner]

The emoish approach of some of the campaigners is something I am quite fond of. They are scared shitless, and why not. :lol:
To not see the plus, because of their patronising is so boring, imo.

And again, even if we're doomed, which I pretty much agree with, why not act up anyway?

[Heiner]

It's funny how the people screaming the loudest about this create copious amounts of pollution. Like the conference in Copenhagen where they all fly in their private jets and cars creating massive amounts of the things that are "causing global warming". If they practiced what they preached, I'd be more inclined to listen. But you can tell it's a fraud by elitist when they want everyone else to live a way but them.

Those who meet in Copenhagen are not those who're yelling the loudest, are they?
And what does their pollution output whilst travelling has to do with the actual problem.
Such facts just irritate and distract from the main issues.

[an angel]

Those who meet in Copenhagen are not those who're yelling the loudest, are they?
And what does their pollution output whilst travelling has to do with the actual problem.
Such facts just irritate and distract from the main issues.

The fact is that they're being hypocrites by telling us how to live while they fly out in their private jets and drive in their big SUVs.

[Reilly]

It's funny how the people screaming the loudest about this create copious amounts of pollution. Like the conference in Copenhagen where they all fly in their private jets and cars creating massive amounts of the things that are "causing global warming". If they practiced what they preached, I'd be more inclined to listen. But you can tell it's a fraud by elitist when they want everyone else to live a way but them.

Because people have jumped on the bandwagon to make a buck means the original argument is now rendered useless?

Scientists have been campaigning about global warming for decades in some cases, its the harsh weather conditions that have brought it to light in the last decade. Politicians, celebrities, CEOs, have used it as a way of promoting their apparent ethos and make more money, but thats completely irrelevant, the problem is a lot more long term then self-indulgent bastards. Also irrelevant is bringing up the buzz words that tabloids use such as terrorists and bird flu, the topic is about global warming, its been an issue for some people before our generation, and similar to people in power, just because the media is capitalising on it when its become an issue, does the original argument suddenly go away?

[MrLick]

Those who meet in Copenhagen are not those who're yelling the loudest, are they?
And what does their pollution output whilst travelling has to do with the actual problem.
Such facts just irritate and distract from the main issues.

They created a massive amount of pollution from all their planes and cars and the conference itself to cut down on the very thing they're creating?

My point was the conference created a copious amount of pollution they are saying is destroying the earth. It's the elitist attitude of you can't do it but we can.

[Heiner]

@ ceolsige: Yes, they do. But is that a good reason for you to not get active?

And I'm in no way linked to those film-makers. I just found that and thought it could make for a discussion- starter.

[Reilly]

Such facts just irritate and distract from the main issues.

Sums up my last post.

Nick and Kelsie, it doesnt matter about their SUVs and private planes because if they weren't using them to get to a climate change conference, they'd just be using them to go somewhere else.

If there was to be a change, everyone would have to adopt a Zen-like attitude towards people in power instead of finger pointing, like Heiner said it just distracts from the main point.

We'd need to embrace any campaign for a better environment, even if its coming from hypocrites, because whining about how theyre elitist and ruining the world more then anyone is a waste of time and isnt going to change anything.

"It's the elitist attitude of you can't do it but we can."

One of the many reasons that I dont think humanity will be able to survive, our collective attitude of "If they aren't going to do anything about it, neither am I."

[MrLick]

Because people have jumped on the bandwagon to make a buck means the original argument is now rendered useless?

No the majority of scientist and governments behind this, moving it forward are doing it to gain power and money. Without them this wouldn't be a issue because their isn't enough science to back it up. It was picked up by power hungry elitist who have made it an issue to gain money and power. Without that drive it would not be a major issue.

Scientists have been campaigning about global warming for decades in some cases, its the harsh weather conditions that have brought it to light in the last decade.

In the 70's in was global cooling. We're all going to freeze.... They weren't getting enough money of power, so the majority knew to use fear to make it an issue. Scientist have used it for power and wealth. The recent emails showing many willing to fudge the data to get their points proven is evidence that real science by the majority has been thrown out the window because of greed.

Also irrelevant is bringing up the buzz words that tabloids use such as terrorists and bird flu, the topic is about global warming,

It goes to show the people in power or those who want power will make issues up or make small issues large with fear to gain money and power. Fear is the way for anyone to get power and money. Scientist wanted more money and power, "we're all going to die from global cooling. Oops I mean global warming...oh wait it's back to global cooling"

Government and the defense industry trying to make us constantly afraid for terrorist so we give them more money and power.

It goes along with my whole point of elitist will always use fear, make it up or amplify something to scare people into doing what they want.

just because the media is capitalising on it when its become an issue, does the original argument suddenly go away?

Media? It's governments, private sector and scientist capitalizing on false fear to gain wealth and power. The real data has been lost in the propaganda and fear-mongering used to gain power and wealth for those pedaling it.

[MrLick]

Nick and Kelsie, it doesnt matter about their SUVs and private planes because if they weren't using them to get to a climate change conference, they'd just be using them to go somewhere else.


Why should we give them power and money then if they cannot practice what they preach? If it was a real issue, the people crying about it would be living lives that are the opposite of this. Many scientist, don't practice what they preach, because of elitism.

[Heiner]

Because people have jumped on the bandwagon to make a buck means the original argument is now rendered useless?

Scientists have been campaigning about global warming for decades in some cases, its the harsh weather conditions that have brought it to light in the last decade. Politicians, celebrities, CEOs, have used it as a way of promoting their apparent ethos and make more money, but thats completely irrelevant, the problem is a lot more long term then self-indulgent bastards. Also irrelevant is bringing up the buzz words that tabloids use such as terrorists and bird flu, the topic is about global warming, its been an issue for some people before our generation, and similar to people in power, just because the media is capitalising on it when its become an issue, does the original argument suddenly go away?

Ah, you say, what I would like to say, if I was better with words.

[MrLick]

No one is willing to debate the issues is another reason why I have a hard time believing it.

Why has the last decade been cooling? Ice increasing? Polar bear population increasing?

[Heiner]

No one is willing to debate the issues is another reason why I have a hard time believing it.

Why has the last decade been cooling? Ice increasing? Polar bear population increasing?

You get the Info that suits your opinion as much as I get Info that supports mine. But how do you or I know, what is historically correct? I've read, that the glaciers in the Himalayas slowly dissolve. Water that 'feeds' big parts of China and India ( well and some smaller countries around). So what about that?

Fuck, it's so exhausting to debate here, when not a native english speaker.:disappointed:
It takes me ages to write my little posts, duh.:(

[Heiner]

No one is willing to debate the issues is another reason why I have a hard time believing it.

There are quite some people debating it Nick. And quite a few have for decades.

[Heiner]

Ho, leaving the scene, when sensible criticism is brought up reminds me of Mc- Squared.
Ceolsige and Nick?

[an angel]

I don't want to argue about this, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

[colduser]

2000–2009, THE WARMEST DECADE

http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/press_releases/pr_869_en.html

[Heiner]

I don't want to argue about this, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

Yeah, but that hypocrisy shouldn't distract you at all, I think. That's just the way it is at the moment.
Well, anyway.

[colduser]

Global Surface Temperature Trend : Result from three Global datasets: NOAA (NCDC Dataset) , NASA (GISS dataset) and combined Hadley Center and Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia (UK) (HadCRUT3 dataset)

http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/press_releases/images/NewImage.PNG

[Heiner]

Thanks for those links!

[Reilly]

No one is willing to debate the issues is another reason why I have a hard time believing it.

For the record I wont be debating it, you sound like another conspiracy theorist nut who cant seem to focus on what we're debating, but an infinite number of contexts surrounding the evidence of what we're debating and why this information is apparently distorted.

The 'hacked emails' look ridiculous by the way, and their significance in the climate change debate hasn't even been acknowledged by those who don't believe in global warming and want to keep their respectability in tact. Its been like 3 weeks since that happened, and 100% of these pro-global warming scientists are all making so much money from it that they turn a blind eye to it?

Tens of thousands of scientists, researchers and students are constantly outlining direct ways into which global warming is happening, there's no way that I believe all of them are getting filthy rich off of it. You may be right that some of them could be, but similar to arguments I made earlier, just because a small percentage represents the face of the problem, does not mean it doesn't exist.

[colduser]

Thanks for those links!

no problem:)

[Luka Modric]

It's because Mr. Government spent MANY MANY years saying 'Climate change, what is this?' and telling us to look the other way, and now they've changed the party line and it's confused the people. It's exactly the same as drug legislation, AMIRITE COME ON WHOS ON IT HERE?

[MrLick]

For the record I wont be debating it, you sound like another conspiracy theorist nut who cant seem to focus on what we're debating, but an infinite number of contexts surrounding the evidence of what we're debating and why this information is apparently distorted.

The 'hacked emails' look ridiculous by the way, and their significance in the climate change debate hasn't even been acknowledged by those who don't believe in global warming and want to keep their respectability in tact. Its been like 3 weeks since that happened, and 100% of these pro-global warming scientists are all making so much money from it that they turn a blind eye to it?

Tens of thousands of scientists, researchers and students are constantly outlining direct ways into which global warming is happening, there's no way that I believe all of them are getting filthy rich off of it. You may be right that some of them could be, but similar to arguments I made earlier, just because a small percentage represents the face of the problem, does not mean it doesn't exist.

It's not a conspiracy its human nature to control through fear. Why did we invade Iraq? Fear of terrorism, without the fear Bush would have never had the power or support to do what he wanted. Leaders throughout time have used fear to do what they want.

There are thousands of scientist who are putting out research that says global warming is not man made. And many studies showing solar activity is to blame. Right now more evidence is showing we are not in global warming and climate changes are not caused by man.

[Reilly]

Whos debating fear? Whos debating Iraq?

I never doubted that some institutions use fear and control, can they do it to the infinite lengths that your suggesting? No.

Global warming has been a widespread issue for a handful of years now and is being reverred by (Like I said) tens of thousands of scientists. Some anti-global warming scientists bring up the warnings in the 70's and at the start of this decade about the Big Freeze, and how those wacky scientists will make up anything to make money. The reality is that there werent many of them, and their theories were proven incorrect within a fairly short space of time.

If it wasnt happening the idea of it would've been quashed a long time ago.

[MrLick]

I never doubted that some institutions use fear and control, can they do it to the infinite lengths that your suggesting? No.

Yes. They are. Fear has been used in every major issue in our world. In just about every war or the financial panic, or disease that is dangerous.

If it wasnt happening the idea of it would've been quashed a long time ago.

Throughout time false ideas have taken hundreds or thousands of years to be "squashed", just because it hasn't been does not make it real. How long did it take to realize the earth was round or the sun was the center of the universe?

We stopped listening to science and substituted it with fear and browbeating people into believing something far from being proven.

[Reilly]

Oh no you used 'People thought the earth was flat once upon a time!' argument which is a pet peeve of mine.

We thought the earth was flat because, unlike now, we didnt have any scientific or geographical proof to say otherwise. I mean for fucks sake we're talking about global warming, not the Iraq war, not terrorism, not fear mongering, not the earth being round and NOT the sun being at the center of the universe! Do you have to back up every point with some wildly vague citing?!

Well heres mine- people can be wrong sometimes so you are definately wrong and further proof on top of that, people are right sometimes so I am definately right.

I win.

[MrLick]

There was scientific evidence but it was ignored by the elites. They ignored science and common sense like what is happening now, but also happens on all major issues. People throw out facts and science because of fear or ignorance.

I was talking about Iraq, terrorism and those other issues because there is a trend with all these major "deadly" issues, fear is used to manipulate the masses and later on we learn the original information was a lie or wrong. Humans are always afraid of the future and everyone plays on that on every major issue. But if people open their eyes look past the propaganda and at the facts they realize it's just fear mongering to gain money and power. There may be a few people that aren't like that, but that doesn't make them right. The majority are power hungry.

[chuck kottke]

It's rather complex, and looking at it from a perspective of a few years is like trying to discern the quality of a road based on one inch or two centimeters of travel on it. While we may have been in a (long time-frame) natural cooling trend, that trend has been slowed or perhaps reversed from our activities (which encompasses more than CO2 emissions - everything from agriculture to methane from livestock to deforestation).. I tend to think there are those who go along for the ride, trying to get more funding for their research, those who can make a buck on the fear, and those who are stuck in a mindset. But then there are those who really want to understand the true nature of what's occurring, and are motivated by the moments of enlightenment - human nature throughout history tells us that this is the case. While modeling may be limited, it has come a long ways from the past, and we are getting a better grasp on what's going on - from both models and from empirical evidence.
But one outstanding thing keeps cropping up in my mind - the earth's crust acts as a sort of dynamic buffer, a place where fixed carbon is stored. As we have in a short span of time burned a significant amount of the stored carbon in this crustal buffer, putting this into CO2 in the atmosphere, which winds up in a new equilibrium with the oceans, air, plant uptake, etc. - this is big, and no doubt cannot be ignored, whatever the effects may be. I think there is legitimate reason for concern, albeit from a careful, rational view of what is really happening, and what may likely occur in the future. To acidify the oceans is something to consider, as well as how CO2 levels and photosynthetic uptake keeps up or not, depending on the conditions. Slowing the warming trend may be a significant amount of soot particles in the atmoshere, that have been reducing the amount of light reaching the surface. As particulate emissions decrease, the latent effects of climate change may become more pronounced.
Anyhow, it's been swell - I must go now!

[Reilly]

There was scientific evidence but it was ignored by the elites. They ignored science and common sense like what is happening now, but also happens on all major issues. People throw out facts and science because of fear or ignorance.

I was talking about Iraq, terrorism and those other issues because there is a trend with all these major "deadly" issues, fear is used to manipulate the masses and later on we learn the original information was a lie or wrong. Humans are always afraid of the future and everyone plays on that on every major issue. But if people open their eyes look past the propaganda and at the facts they realize it's just fear mongering to gain money and power. There may be a few people that aren't like that, but that doesn't make them right. The majority are power hungry.



Im very well aware of scare tactics, you don't have to keep reminding me by using the most well known examples around. When I first heard of Global Warming nearer the earlier part of this decade, I didnt suddenly jump out of my chair and shout "THE DOOMSDAY IS UPON US"

I did of course question it, but I also looked at is a possibility, mainly because it started off as a news item that didnt get great coverage and that not many cared to know about it. But over the course of this decade the importance of climate change has continued to become more important, because clearly it is now a real issue. Not like swine flu or the many other things you could bring up which came and went, providing a nice diversion from war and economic problems.

The main thing that I do not understand with your argument, is that you are talking about the greed of the human race (Which I agree with) yet the corporate bastards and oil barons who run this earth definately do not see Global Warming as an advantage to them, and in future if the importance of the preservation of the world becomes number 1 priority to us living on it (very unlikely) then they will have to make serious environmental changes to how they conduct business.

[Reilly]

I tend to think there are those who go along for the ride, trying to get more funding for their research, those who can make a buck on the fear, and those who are stuck in a mindset. But then there are those who really want to understand the true nature of what's occurring, and are motivated by the moments of enlightenment - human nature throughout history tells us that this is the case. While modeling may be limited, it has come a long ways from the past, and we are getting a better grasp on what's going on - from both models and from empirical evidence.

This is both sides of the coin that I'm referring to Nick. In terms of the two short periods when the earth severely cooling was of minor relevance, it didn't take long to be proven to be false. The basic principles of why global warming is happening (And the predicted rise in temperature in correlation with higher CO2 levels) have not changed in decades.

[The Escapist]

What do we really have to lose as a world though by being energy efficient? If everyone in the world put a solar panel on their roof where there was regular sunlight, we would cut down CO2 output by tonnes. The only people who lose out of the global warming are the rich barsted who sell us the fuel anyway. Australia has the same issue with water, being so dry and all. If every australian had a water tank in their backyard, the water saving would be enormous. Question: I am told that American's don't use clotheslines? Is that correct?

[MrLick]

What do we really have to lose as a world though by being energy efficient? If everyone in the world put a solar panel on their roof where there was regular sunlight, we would cut down CO2 output by tonnes. The only people who lose out of the global warming are the rich barsted who sell us the fuel anyway. Australia has the same issue with water, being so dry and all. If every australian had a water tank in their backyard, the water saving would be enormous. Question: I am told that American's don't use clotheslines? Is that correct?

Clotheslines don't work for people with allergies. We could all cook with fire, bath in rivers and go back to the stone age, but that didn't stop the last ice age or the earth from being a giant desert before.

Everyone loses out on global warming scams with job losses and less productivity. Things will cost a lot more and millions of jobs will be lost.

[MrLick]

P.S. There is a lot of evidence that C02 is actually good for the environment.

Dr. Craig Idso of the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, one of the nation's leading carbon dioxide research centers, examined records of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations and air temperature over the last 250,000 years. There were three dramatic episodes of global warming that occurred at the end of the last three ice ages. Interestingly, temperatures started to rise during those warming periods well before the atmospheric carbon dioxide started to increase. In fact, the carbon dioxide levels did not begin to rise until 400 to 1,000 years after the planet began to warm. Concludes Dr. Idso, "Clearly, there is no way that these real-world observations can be construed to even hint at the possibility that a significant increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide will necessarily lead to any global warming."1

On the other hand, scientists have lots of evidence demonstrating that increased carbon dioxide levels leads to healthier plants. A team of scientists in Nevada conducted a five-year experiment in which they grew one group of ponderosa pine trees at the current carbon dioxide atmospheric level of about 360 parts per million (ppm) and another group of pines at 700 ppm. The doubled carbon dioxide level increased tree height by 43 percent and diameter by 24 percent. Similarly, a team of scientists from Virginia Tech University reported that growing loblolly pine trees in a greenhouse with a carbon dioxide concentration of 700 ppm increased average tree height 9 percent, diameter by 7 percent, needle biomass by 16 percent and root biomass by 33 percent.2


http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA334.html

http://sibbyonline.blogs.com/sibbyonline/2009/10/co2-good-for-the-environment.html.

http://ker-plunk.blogspot.com/2008/01/more-co2-is-good-for-environment.html

http://petesplace-peter.blogspot.com/2008/05/carbon-dioxide-emissions-good-for.html

[The Escapist]

But one can easily be selective about which articles one uses to back an arguement. If I went and got a heap of links to articles that supported climate change would they be wrong?

Does the whole of America have allergies? Im not saying we should stop using electricity or anything like that but hanging washing on the line isn't going to hurt anyone who doesn't have an 'allergy'.

[Heiner]

What do we really have to lose as a world though by being energy efficient? If everyone in the world put a solar panel on their roof where there was regular sunlight, we would cut down CO2 output by tonnes.

Yes, that's a good point. Even if what Nick says was the entire truth, which I personally doubt, we still have to look out for alternative ways of providing people with electricity, as we'll run out of gas, oil and coal pretty soon.

The chance of this whole topic might be, that for the first time in human history all people of all countries face the same, global problem beyond petty mutual cutting off recources and gaining some dodgy power over others. This would be a great chance to indulge on the the positive sides of globalisation.

I spent some time demonstrating for this cause the last week, and most people I've met aren't fear- ridden and hysterical, they are simply concerned and would like to get a sensible result in Copenhagen, and beyond Copenhagen.

Btw, I tend to think, that there are very many jobs in what is called a green revolution. And more genuine, long-lasting freedom and indipendence, for both individual and national entities.

[Heiner]

Clotheslines don't work for people with allergies. We could all cook with fire, bath in rivers and go back to the stone age.

The killer- argument tactic doesn't really help.
You do critizise fear- tactics and throw in scare- tactics to proove your point, how does that add up to anything?

Nobody has to wash his laundry in the rivers again, if we empower sensible (! there seem to be lot of shitty 'alternative' energy- plans) ways of getting energy for our cars and household maschines and blah.

[The Escapist]

Why wouldn't you use energy saving alternatives regardless of how much it would save the environment if it saved you money?If you had your own tank, how much would you save in water bills? If you had a solar panel, how much would you save on electricity bills?

[Heiner]

You would save an awful lot of money, and that's what's so intriguing about it, it's just full of effin' advantages. I can't see any downside whatsoever.

[Heiner]

And blaming 'the rich and greedy bastards' is yet another distracting wrong trait.

All those arguments fuel the concept of 'panem et circenses' which you claim to be the problem here, to be straight honest. As much as not all the filthy rich are mere pathetic bastards, not every poor man and woman is a saint. And you know that, so why using those twisted arguments at all. Look what happened, when the certainly opressed masses were empowered in the former or still communist countries, they created bloody hell as well.

Btw Nick, I'm quite thankful for your input here, as it gives the opportunity to dig out those mislead irritations, which corrupt our minds and prevent us from focussing on the crucial facts austerely.

Being equipped with reflective brains, we humans are still on the road on how to use this amazing tool properly, I think. We now may have entered a stage, where we could overcome some very primitive ideas of how to use it.

There was immense trial and error in the last decades ( well, yeah centuries and stuff), which was obviously necessary to experience what's sensitive and what's just not. Thanks to globalisation, things do speed up now. I can only see a great, great chance to develop both collectively and consequently tied to that individually.

Again, even if we're doomed, why not go for it in grace. :wideeyed:

[Reilly]

No offense Nick, but its nice that a few other people have seen how ridiculous your debates can be. CO2 is good for selected plants so therefore its brilliant for everything? Actually the 'Some people have allergies' was the weirdest.

[MrLick]

I'm going to quote Joshua

Random half drunken/tired rant: For you people bringing up CO2 bullshit: Temperature levels increase CO2 levels, not the other way around. The ocean releases CO2 into the atmosphere when it gets warmer; it isn't CO2 emissions causing global warming, or any greenhouse gas for that matter.

The most common greenhouse gas on Earth is H2O (Water Vapor) anyway.

So even if Global warming IS happening, it's not humans causing it, and it never will be. Humans can never measure up to the Earth's own natural climate cycles.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Vostok-ice-core-petit.png

It's been happening for hundreds of thousands of years; humans have only been here for some 200,000, and we only just began using Fossil fuels.
__________________


The debate is still on and all I've seen there is more evidence against it than for it. Until I see something the proves otherwise I'm not going to give money and power and inconvenience myself on something that very well may be false.

[Gautama]

i don't think john lennon was simply being naive, not at all.
uhm, this is not only the song btw.

YouTube- John Lennon & Yoko Ono: WAR IS OVER! (If You Want It)

[Reilly]

Well as Ive stated before in this thread, debating with people who believe in extreme conspiracy theories is really difficult because of their vague, tedious connections and inability to stick to the point.

But thanks for the John Lennon video :thinking:

[MrMagpie]

Okay so lets say that global warming is 100% natural, humans are playing 0% of a role in it....it still seems like a good idea to me that we adapt practices that reduce CO2 emissions.

And quite simply I'm not buying any of the bullshit saying that climate change is just a big scam to get power and wealth. If that were the case why are the leaders of the world dragging their heals and not rushing out and getting rich off of climate change.

Isn't it the opposite? In Canada first of all we are weaking our already weak targets. The majority of the world is using 1990 as their baseline for setting reduction targets. Canada is using 2006 to make it look like we're doing more than we actually are.
Canada is more concerned with the Tar Sands in Alberta, a massive operation that will make Canada money but is absolutely raping the environment. Thats where our countries priorities lie.

If we continue our ways of developing, gobbling up limited resources, cutting down rainforests, dumping pollution into the atmosphere, dumping pollution into the oceans, etc. etc. etc. we are all in trouble.

And sure to dramatically change our current system into something more sustainable is going to cost lots of money, and jobs will be lost. But at the same time, not doing anything, and paying the price down the road will also be very expensive. And while jobs may be lost, new jobs can be created. A switch to a hydrogen economy, switching to green buildings, switching to alternative energy sources also creates new jobs.

An interesting video that my friend sent me:

YouTube- The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See 2

[The Escapist]

The thing is, if governments really have fucked up and they end up putting all this money into renewable energy resources, then it will only be a portion of the economy that was going to be lost when resources ran out anyway and no lives will be lost. If governments fail to act and climate change really is happening and their is a way we could've prevented it, we have fucked up 10 times worse. It will the world and peoples lives at risk.

[MrLick]

Well as Ive stated before in this thread, debating with people who believe in extreme conspiracy theories is really difficult because of their vague, tedious connections and inability to stick to the point.

But thanks for the John Lennon video :thinking:

Yes not believing in global warming is a conspiracy theory.

Okay so lets say that global warming is 100% natural, humans are playing 0% of a role in it....it still seems like a good idea to me that we adapt practices that reduce CO2 emissions.

Why, if CO2 isn't bad, why reduce it? As studies are showing it may be bad for the environment to reduce CO2. In trying to do good we very well might cause a bigger problem. The wrong action with best intentions often creates a bigger problem.

[The Escapist]

When has anything caused by man been benefical for the environment? We physically alter the environment to suit ourselves and we think the world is just going on behaving normally like nothing is happening.

[MrLick]

When has anything caused by man been benefical for the environment? We physically alter the environment to suit ourselves and we think the world is just going on behaving normally like nothing is happening.

I'm not saying don't take care of the environment, I'm saying let's focus on the science not speculation of global warming. There is a lot of research on how our actions are destroying the ocean, and the alarming amount of cancer being caused by pollution.

I read a while ago the co-founder of Greenpeace is against global warmest because they have hijacked the real issues and efforts to actually help the environment. If we take all the wasted time and money fighting "global warming" and spend that effort on other issues that are more proven and need our attention we could do more of the planet. There are more realistic proven environmental issues out there than global warming and CO2, which very well may be good for the environment.

[Gautama]

Well as Ive stated before in this thread, debating with people who believe in extreme conspiracy theories is really difficult because of their vague, tedious connections and inability to stick to the point.

But thanks for the John Lennon video :thinking:

with the one not being naive, i was referring to john lennon. :nice:

[The Escapist]

I'm not saying don't take care of the environment, I'm saying let's focus on the science not speculation of global warming. There is a lot of research on how our actions are destroying the ocean, and the alarming amount of cancer being caused by pollution.

I read a while ago the co-founder of Greenpeace is against global warmest because they have hijacked the real issues and efforts to actually help the environment. If we take all the wasted time and money fighting "global warming" and spend that effort on other issues that are more proven and need our attention we could do more of the planet. There are more realistic proven environmental issues out there than global warming and CO2, which very well may be good for the environment.

I agree with the focus on the science but 'global warming' isnt the same as exterrestrials. With the redirection of funds, you could say the same about war. If the US put all the money they did into Iraq and put it into enviroment pursuit like you said: ocean pollution, deforestation etc, the world would be a better place. Taking funding out of global warming research isn't going to make the situation better. Can you take after the funding from the scientist who suggest "global cooling" and that "CO2 is good for the environement" as well? Are they just as unecessary?

[MK]

I've been thinking about this whole thing and I just can't decide what is right. I used to think that global warming is true and caused mostly by humans. Then I started noticing that there are people who think it is a fraud. Finally some weeks ago (maybe more than a month ago, I don't know) I stopped having an opinion. A lot of people say that it is real and then again some say that it isn't, and I can see why it could be real and why it maybe isn't. Every time I start thinking about it it's like a loop that never ends.
In my country we don't have to give money to help fighting global warming, and if we did I think I would be against that. I also think that me or my family pollute the atmosphere in very small amounts (by driving a car, for example; whether or not that is causing global warming it is still pollution) so global warming being a fraud or not doesn't affect us much. So I'm kind of lucky that I don't have to decide yet.

[MrMagpie]

I've been thinking about this whole thing and I just can't decide what is right. I used to think that global warming is true and caused mostly by humans. Then I started noticing that there are people who think it is a fraud. Finally some weeks ago (maybe more than a month ago, I don't know) I stopped having an opinion. A lot of people say that it is real and then again some say that it isn't, and I can see why it could be real and why it maybe isn't. Every time I start thinking about it it's like a loop that never ends.
In my country we don't have to give money to help fighting global warming, and if we did I think I would be against that. I also think that me or my family pollute the atmosphere in very small amounts (by driving a car, for example; whether or not that is causing global warming it is still pollution) so global warming being a fraud or not doesn't affect us much. So I'm kind of lucky that I don't have to decide yet.

With over 6 billion people on our planet, even the small things all add up. Every car ride, every SUV on the road, every article of clothing imported from the third world, every banana purchased from the Caribbean....etc...etc....it all adds up.

If CO2 emissions continue to rapidly expand, if we continue to use up all our resources, then it will affect you. And it will affect your children. And it will affect your grandchildren.

Thats the thing, the way we are treating the planet is really screwing over future generations who will be left with our mess.

[MrLick]

if we continue to use up all our resources,

That is what really concerns me. CO2 so far has had more evidence showing it's good not bad but our resources and population are concerning.

[the_gloaming09]

I think that we all have to as many have said prior to this post that we need to watch what we are consuming. I get the impression that people think that we can't use up ALL the resources, much like people think that they can't be hurt or get into an accident because it "can't happen to them".

I do believe in climate change because it's been happening since the origin of this planet. I think it has some to do with man, but perhaps not all. I mean after all this planet has been around for billions of years going through so many different climate changes (of heating periods and ice ages) way before we were around. I don't think we fully know what is going on. For example there was all this talk about the planet heating up, and then recently people are saying the planet is cooling down. So who really knows?

Regardless of the debate on global warming/cooling/whatever we all should be more conscience in what we do to the environment. If we keep going at the rate we are going we will use up all the resources and there will be too many people using up those resources, which is a major problem. Earth is our home and we should treat it with respect. As an analogy you wouldn't wan't someone coming into your home and throw trash or shit all over the place and not caring.

[MrMagpie]

That is what really concerns me. CO2 so far has had more evidence showing it's good not bad but our resources and population are concerning.

Yeah, now most CO2 emissions do come from the burning fossil fuels, a limited resource. So if you can contain CO2 emissions better you would think that the use of finite resources would also be reduced.

[Heiner]

YouTube- The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE6Kdo1AQmY&feature=related)

This clip sums up the state I'm at about this issue atm. Thankies.

[Heiner]

i don't think john lennon was simply being naive, not at all.
uhm, this is not only the song btw.

YouTube- John Lennon & Yoko Ono: WAR IS OVER! (If You Want It) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbKsgaXQy2k)

Yep, John Lennon may appear to have been very naive in what he was asking people to do, but I do agree, that he was not naive at all. Reminds me of a clip:

Why don't you change? An interesting question.

YouTube- Krishnamurti : Why don't You Change?

Back to the climate now. :disappointed:

[MK]

With over 6 billion people on our planet, even the small things all add up. Every car ride, every SUV on the road, every article of clothing imported from the third world, every banana purchased from the Caribbean....etc...etc....it all adds up.

If CO2 emissions continue to rapidly expand, if we continue to use up all our resources, then it will affect you. And it will affect your children. And it will affect your grandchildren.

Thats the thing, the way we are treating the planet is really screwing over future generations who will be left with our mess.

I agree that small things are important.

I don't see how I am polluting the atmosphere. I don't see how my grandma is polluting the atmosphere. I can only see my mom doing that with driving. She sometimes drives me but I usually go by bus or by foot. I don't see how I could change my actions to "help the planet". That's how global warming being a fraud or not doesn't really affect me, because I don't see what I could do. I support clean and fresh air regardless of global warming.

Now when it comes to expressing my opinion on global warming, I have a problem because I don't know what to think. Should I fight for decreased emissions of CO2? Should I talk to people convincing them that the planet is doomed? Or should I talk to them saying it's all fake? I don't know. I can only keep thinking about it until I find some sort of a solution.

[MrMagpie]

I agree that small things are important.

I don't see how I am polluting the atmosphere. I don't see how my grandma is polluting the atmosphere. I can only see my mom doing that with driving. She sometimes drives me but I usually go by bus or by foot. I don't see how I could change my actions to "help the planet". That's how global warming being a fraud or not doesn't really affect me, because I don't see what I could do. I support clean and fresh air regardless of global warming.

Now when it comes to expressing my opinion on global warming, I have a problem because I don't know what to think. Should I fight for decreased emissions of CO2? Should I talk to people convincing them that the planet is doomed? Or should I talk to them saying it's all fake? I don't know. I can only keep thinking about it until I find some sort of a solution.

But thats the thing, there are so many ways that you are in fact indirectly polluting the atmosphere. If you have the lights on in your house, or have a computer on, or you're watching TV....those things all require electricity. Most electricity comes from burning coal, oil, gas, etc. And all of those things give off carbon dioxide.

When you buy food that is shipped across the ocean, and/or trucked hundreds and thousands of miles you are polluting the atmosphere unless this is all being done by solar powered transport trucks....well you know what I mean.

So if you or your grandmother are doing any of these things (i.e. not living in a cave) then you are polluting the atmosphere, there is no way of sugar coating it.

Take a look at your carbon footprint.
http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx

[Heiner]

Bumpin'.

[MK]

But thats the thing, there are so many ways that you are in fact indirectly polluting the atmosphere. If you have the lights on in your house, or have a computer on, or you're watching TV....those things all require electricity. Most electricity comes from burning coal, oil, gas, etc. And all of those things give off carbon dioxide.

When you buy food that is shipped across the ocean, and/or trucked hundreds and thousands of miles you are polluting the atmosphere unless this is all being done by solar powered transport trucks....well you know what I mean.

So if you or your grandmother are doing any of these things (i.e. not living in a cave) then you are polluting the atmosphere, there is no way of sugar coating it.

Take a look at your carbon footprint.
http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx

Okay. You are right, I interact with the world.

As for that calculator... I'll just post my answers here, because I don't know how to answer some.

House:
How many people are in your household?
3
Electricity:
I don't know
Natural gas:
I don't know
Heating oil:
What?
Coal:
I assume we don't use coal? I don't know.
LPG:
What?
Propane:
...I don't know
Wooden pellets:
What?

Flights:
I've been on a plane 2 times in my life. It was from Belgrade to Corfu, Greece, and back.

Car:
I don't drive.

Motorbike:
Don't have one.

Bus & Rail:
I go by bus to aikido practice and back 3 times a week (except once every two weeks when my mom drives me, in one direction). I'm not sure how far away that is. If I go by bicycle (which I do during summer and generally when it's warm and nice weather) it takes me around 30 minutes.
I also go by bus to some other places, let's average it to 2 or 3 times a week (in one direction), and those are pretty short rides.
Haven't traveled by train in years.

Secondary:
Food preferences: I don't really like meat and I mainly eat white.
Organic produce
I... don't know? I am pretty sure most of it is organic.
In season food
Depends. But more yes than no.
Imported food and goods
We have a weekend house where we grow some fruits and vegetables, but we also buy food and I don't know where that comes from.
Fashion
I buy new clothes when I need them.
Packaging
I haven't really thought about this. When my mom buys stuff in the supermarket she uses too much plastic bags, at least in my opinion. As for me, I always use the ones she brings home from the supermarket if I need them.
Furniture and electricals
I don't know.
Recycling
Sadly not much stuff gets recycled in this country. My mom, grandma and me separate paper from other junk. Plastic bottles too, I think, or at least we used to... nobody wants to recycle it.
Recreation
I rarely go outside in my free time. I haven't been to the cinema in months, and I've been to a bar/cafe once in the past... well, I'm not sure. In the past 3 months or so. I don't go to restaurants. I don't enjoy the "carbon intense" activities mentioned on that website.
Car manufacture
My mom uses a car owned by the company she works for.
Finance and other services
Huh? I do have a bank account... I'm saving money.

[MrLick]

Scientists Considered Pouring Soot Over the Arctic in the 1970s to Help Melt the Ice - In Order to Prevent Another Ice Age

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/scientists-considered-pouring-soot-over-arctic-1970s-help-melt-ice-order-prevent-another-ice

The cooling world

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/apr/02/20060402-112828-5298r/

[MrMagpie]

Shrinking ice caps in Canada:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050309142557.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/science/Canada_Ice.html

Arctic cap shrinking:
http://www.pewclimate.org/impacts/icecap

Shrinking polar glaciers in Greenland:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060317112333.htm

More on shrinking ice caps:
http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/qthinice.asp

[MrLick]

Ice shrinks in someplace and grows in others....

1,000 ago there where changing glaciers, that does not prove anything. The Earth always changing, like Arctic ice is growing now.

I'm going to laugh in 30 years when global cooling is going to kill us again.

[MrLick]

1) There is “no real scientific proof” that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from man’s activity.

2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.

3) Warmer periods of the Earth’s history came around 800 years before rises in CO2 levels.

4) After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.

5) Throughout the Earth’s history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher – more than ten times as high.

6) Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time.

7) The 0.7C increase in the average global temperature over the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term, natural climate trends.

8) The IPCC theory is driven by just 60 scientists and favourable reviewers not the 4,000 usually cited.

9) Leaked e-mails from British climate scientists – in a scandal known as “Climate-gate”- suggest that that has been manipulated to exaggerate global warming

10) A large body of scientific research suggests that the sun is responsible for the greater share of climate change during the past hundred years.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/1461...

I have included some music that you can play while working on your rebuttal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

http://www.topix.com/forum/who/al-gore/TOUG8P8Q2N8NJE250/p13

I hope science wins in the end.

http://nov55.com/gbwm.html

[MrLick]

Report: 12 month global temperature drop nearly wipes out past 100 years of warming

Excerpt: All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously. Meteorologist Anthony Watts compiled the results of all the sources. The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the past 100 years. All in one year time. For all sources, it's the single fastest temperature change every recorded, either up or down.
http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+
Worldwide+Global+Cooling/article10866.htm

http://nov55.com/gbcool.html

Excerpt: Snow cover over North America and much of Siberia, Mongolia and China is greater than at any time since 1966. The U.S. National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) reported that many American cities and towns suffered record cold temperatures in January and early February. According to the NCDC, the average temperature in January "was -0.3 F cooler than the 1901-2000 (20th century) average." China is surviving its most brutal winter in a century. Temperatures in the normally balmy south were so low for so long that some middle-sized cities went days and even weeks without electricity because once power lines had toppled it was too cold or too icy to repair them. There have been so many snow and ice storms in Ontario and Quebec in the past two months that the real estate market has felt the pinch as home buyers have stayed home rather than venturing out looking for new houses. In just the first two weeks of February, Toronto received 70 cm of snow, smashing the record of 66.6 cm for the entire month set back in the pre-SUV, pre-Kyoto, pre-carbon footprint days of 1950. And remember the Arctic Sea ice? The ice we were told so hysterically last fall had melted to its "lowest levels on record? Never mind that those records only date back as far as 1972 and that there is anthropological and geological evidence of much greater melts in the past.

The ice is back. Gilles Langis, a senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa, says the Arctic winter has been so severe the ice has not only recovered, it is actually 10 to 20 cm thicker in many places than at this time last year. […]Last month, Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, shrugged off manmade climate change as "a drop in the bucket." Showing that solar activity has entered an inactive phase, Prof. Sorokhtin advised people to "stock up on fur coats." He is not alone. Kenneth Tapping of our own National Research Council, who oversees a giant radio telescope focused on the sun, is convinced we are in for a long period of severely cold weather if sunspot activity does not pick up soon. The last time the sun was this inactive, Earth suffered the Little Ice Age that lasted about five centuries and ended in 1850. Crops failed through killer frosts and drought. Famine, plague and war were widespread. Harbours froze, so did rivers, and trade ceased. It's way too early to claim the same is about to happen again, but then it's way too early for the hysteria of the global warmers, too.
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/
story.html?id=332289

[MrMagpie]

Ten Popular Myths perpetuated in Canada about the science of Global Climate Change

There is no scientific consensus

American scientists don't buy it - 19,000 signed a petition against the IPCC's views and the need for the Kyoto Protocol

This is all within natural variability

It won't affect Canada much - and definitely not in my lifetime

A few degrees more will be really nice - especially for plants!

The scientific models aren't very good at projecting the future

Carbon Dioxide levels are not strongly related to temperature - how could they in such trace amounts?

Satellite measurements have not shown the trends

The observed warming is all due to solar radiation variability, not human activity

Scientists are just exaggerating in order to get more funding

http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/programs/atmosphere-energy/climate-change/ten-myths.html

[the_gloaming09]

i think regardless of if global warming is actually happening i think the main issue that needs to be addressed is that all of us need to take better care of our planet or it will be inhabitable perhaps not for us or our children, but our grandchildren and so on.

[Heiner]

I would like to get this board's teenies' opinions too!

[Italian Plastic]

What exactly am I opinioning on?

[Heiner]

Climate change, do you wanna do something about it, or can't you be bothered.
It's an epic topic, but I'm still interested in what the planet's youth is thinking.

[Notion]

well, if we're going into climate change and global warming and all

I honestly think its a myth

remember .. just my opinion

[Italian Plastic]

mmmkay.

I want to do something about it, even if it's something minor.
Although it's a big thing and people should be doing whatever they can to save our planet, some people are overreacting. I can't see anything happening in the next 10-20 years...

[Heiner]

^^ Sure, that's all I ask for.

[Notion]

yeah, most people in my school don't believe in global warming..
I have a good reason why I don't believe, its just I just got up and can't think of it right now

[Heiner]

mmmkay.

I want to do something about it, even if it's something minor.
Although it's a big thing and people should be doing whatever they can to save our planet, some people are overreacting. I can't see anything happening in the next 10-20 years...

OK.

[Reilly]

The worlds going to explode in 17mins.

[MrMagpie]

I'm ashamed to be Canadian.
http://beta.sierraclub.ca/en/emily-rideout/blog/canada-colossal-fossil

[Gautama]

the age of stupid. :( :disappointed:

[Reilly]

There there.

*MOST POINTLESS POST OF THE DECADE*

[MrLick]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_91s-Zkod9Gc/SZFYLYQFamI/AAAAAAAAEoQ/5duhjrwwcT0/s400/save_the_planet_kill_yourself.jpg

[Gautama]

^ :lol::nice:

[MrMagpie]

So out of all that talk all that we get is a non legally binding whatever piece of junk they want to call it.

[Heiner]

So whatever didn't happen in Copenhagen now, doesn't it make you feel funny?
To be honest, I'm terribly bewildered what this thread put into display.
There were only a handful of people responding, and half of them think, climate change isn't something to worry about.

My thought about it is: even if it isn't half as urgent as the activists say, it still would make sense to care about your planet. To take resposibilty. To listen to Thom Yorke, if you put him into your signature, which you do to show how much you like him. Only musically? You don't get the best of him, imo.

You are as square as your ancestors. You are boring, lame and crazy. You are the reason, why we are doomed. Live with it, all you ceolsiges and Mr.Nicks. And do me the favour of spilling your stupidity over me. That's just sad, every day life.

Your irresponsibilty sucks major ass. Your poo- talks and homophobia sucks major ass.
That, Reilly, is the main reason, why we are doomed, as far as I'm concerned.


To all those, who read this but didn't respond here personally, though they are concerned and are/ plan to get active: I didn't talk to you. I think that's obvious.

Get active. Love, Heiner.

[MrMagpie]

Here is my conclusion to this thread etc.

I don't think just because you listen to an artist you have to agree with their political, religious, economic, social beliefs...so using Thom Yorke in your signature is fine even if you don't agree with everything he says or does.

And with Nick, at least he has thought this through, and has reasons behind his beliefs. Agree or disagree with them, it is apparent that he is using his brain and making what he views as an informed discussion. And he, along with many of us, has expressed concern for the way that we are currently using the world's resources. So props for that.

However, you have to be completely naive to think that you have no impact in polluting the world, or that it doesn't matter, or doesn't impact you, or will never impact you. We are rapidly using up resources, our society is dependent on fossil fuels (a limited resource). We are used to convenience and throw away products. Thats how things operate. But that doesn't mean its right. And it doesn't mean we can live like this forever.
And if you don't believe in climate change just for the sake of not believing it, or you don't have a reason, that is pure stupidity and you should just shut up about the issue.

That being said, I encourage anybody who reads this to make changes, take steps to reduce your carbon foot print, to use less resources, to live a more sustainable lifestyle. Think about where the things you use are coming from and what goes into their creation. Think about what you value in life. Think about the future.

Use your brain, and don't be stupid.

[the_gloaming09]

Here is my conclusion to this thread etc.

I don't think just because you listen to an artist you have to agree with their political, religious, economic, social beliefs...so using Thom Yorke in your signature is fine even if you don't agree with everything he says or does.

And with Nick, at least he has thought this through, and has reasons behind his beliefs. Agree or disagree with them, it is apparent that he is using his brain and making what he views as an informed discussion. And he, along with many of us, has expressed concern for the way that we are currently using the world's resources. So props for that.

However, you have to be completely naive to think that you have no impact in polluting the world, or that it doesn't matter, or doesn't impact you, or will never impact you. We are rapidly using up resources, our society is dependent on fossil fuels (a limited resource). We are used to convenience and throw away products. Thats how things operate. But that doesn't mean its right. And it doesn't mean we can live like this forever.
And if you don't believe in climate change just for the sake of not believing it, or you don't have a reason, that is pure stupidity and you should just shut up about the issue.

That being said, I encourage anybody who reads this to make changes, take steps to reduce your carbon foot print, to use less resources, to live a more sustainable lifestyle. Think about where the things you use are coming from and what goes into their creation. Think about what you value in life. Think about the future.

Use your brain, and don't be stupid.

nicely put

[Heiner]

Could you teach me how to bear the frustration though? I really suck at that, I too spend a lot of time in ignorant bliss, but every once in a while, like with Copenhagen now, I get incredibly angry and delirious. Really, what could I do to cool down in such situations?

[MrMagpie]

Could you teach me how to bear the frustration though? I really suck at that, I too spend a lot of time in ignorant bliss, but every once in a while, like with Copenhagen now, I get incredibly angry and delirious. Really, what could I do to cool down in such situations?

I was really frustrated and angry about what happened in Copenhagen as well. The key is turning that negative energy and emotions into something that motivates you and propels you.
Like right now I'm so pissed off with our leadership that I can't help but e-mail my Prime Minister and local politicians, I can't help but put stuff up on facebook expressing my views. The last few days I've been telling anybody who will listen whats going on and why I feel the way I do.

[Heiner]

May this discussion proceed.

[ricardo]

People are irresponsible. Ecological issues are the major concern of modern times. When people learn that money can't be eaten they will act. But people don't act either because of indolence, stupidity or lack of conscience. "I'll let my great grand children worry about that":
that's why our world is so fucked up, people are blind and selfish.

[Heiner]

Yes! Look at the few and sad responses that 'coldplayers will safe the world- thread' got. It's incredible, how ignorant people are. Passive, boring.

[Cobalt]

Maybe they thought they couldn't really do anything worthwhile or joining the group wouldn't further their efforts

It's incredible, how ignorant people are

[MrLick]

[QUOTE] You are as square as your ancestors. You are boring, lame and crazy. You are the reason, why we are doomed. Live with it, all you ceolsiges and Mr.Nicks/QUOTE]

Go fry your brain cells some more and leave us alone.

[Heiner]

Ah Nick, you're angry at me and I'm sorry for that. I got angry too, but I guess you might give a shit about why I was angry back then, or you could think it's ridiculous to get angry about it.
I admit, that I get heavily annoyed and feel provoked by how many people don't seem to care. Well, I shouldn't, cuz it's not a tad constructive.

You hit back, I accept the pelt, since I started being polemic and unfriendly.

I still don't perceive this being a topic anyone could handle carelessly or not at all, or get sarcastic about though. And you seemed to never respond to my wish to stay clear of arguments, that imo lead the disussion off- topic/ were distracting killer- arguments.

[Heiner]

Maybe they thought they couldn't really do anything worthwhile or joining the group wouldn't further their efforts

Yeah probably. It's a pity how few and how sparsely the answers were. I thought the idea of that facebook group ( getting more people into charity/ environmental issues) wasn't so bad/ naive. One of course has to take good care of which NGO to support, but the ones picked here seem to be ok.



I sense that I'm pissing people off with all this, wrong place maybe. Nevermind.

[Gautama]

will what happens to the people of japan/ fukushima daiichi change anything worldwide?

what's really important/ what's just not?

don't you think this age will once be regarded as extraordinarily stupid?

what can you do to make a difference?



discuss kids, this is your world. you ARE all responsible for it, you should be loving it,
take great care of it, because it's the most beautiful precious and rather small/delicate thing we got.


(again: please refrain from idiotic sarcasm, because this simply isn't a funny topic.)

[Gitta Rensolo]

will what happens to the people of japan/ fukushima daiichi change anything worldwide?

what's really important/ what's just not?

don't you think this age will once be regarded as extraordinarily stupid?

what can you do to make a difference?



discuss kids, this is your world. you ARE all responsible for it, you should be loving it,
take great care of it, because it's the most beautiful precious and rather small/delicate thing we got.


(again: please refrain from idiotic sarcasm, because this simply isn't a funny topic.)

I agree with what you are saying at the end. I wish it could change something worldwide, but I am afraid it doesn't...mankind is just too selfish....well I find it ridiculous
well I know this isn't much I am saying there, but I wish I could discuss something like this in my own language....I find it hard to do in english esp. when it is almost midnight

[Reilly]

will what happens to the people of japan/ fukushima daiichi change anything worldwide?

what's really important/ what's just not?

don't you think this age will once be regarded as extraordinarily stupid?

what can you do to make a difference?



discuss kids, this is your world. you ARE all responsible for it, you should be loving it,
take great care of it, because it's the most beautiful precious and rather small/delicate thing we got.


(again: please refrain from idiotic sarcasm, because this simply isn't a funny topic.)

Idiotic sarcasm aboard, why are the kids suddenly responsible?

[Gitta Rensolo]

ah yeah.....we (the kids) are not responsible for it at the moment...we can only try and make it better in the future....

[Gautama]

I agree with what you are saying at the end. I wish it could change something worldwide, but I am afraid it doesn't...mankind is just too selfish....well I find it ridiculous
well I know this isn't much I am saying there, but I wish I could discuss something like this in my own language....I find it hard to do in english esp. when it is almost midnight

oh yeah, explaining stuff in english is absurdly difficult sometimes, non?
i'm literally frustrated with almost each of me posts.:freak:

Idiotic sarcasm aboard, why are the kids suddenly responsible?

we all are, don't you think? for what we do and don't do. just because this isn't a popular fact, it's still a fact, imo. and if more people saw that we all just forgot some fundamental facts, that would make the whole difference.
(i didn't mean that they are responsible for fukushima, if you thought i was referring to that?? :thinking: )

ah yeah.....we (the kids) are not responsible for it at the moment...we can only try and make it better in the future....

yep. but most people always wait for something big to happen/ someone other to start.
and start with what? well, i guess starting to live up to the factual responsibility ( which will be a great great pleasure for all of us, and can be realised with a lot of humour. i think there would be less depressed people for example, because there'll be more actual SENSE in this world. more soul, respect, love even ( love being the same as sense and responsibility- again - i really mean that.)

i do have a great example of an idea how to actually do sth. a friend of my mother roams the streets of her rather gloomy little german suburb with a hord of kids. they clean up the place, put color on the electricity boxes, plant fruits and vegetables in public places and take care of them. they are taking baths in the village fountain/ main square when it's ultra hot. plus loads of other great ideas, she's very creative. she teaches those kids active participation/ responsibility for their immediate surrounding. some of them are from extremely neglected backgrounds (both rich and poor), where they never get such input.
those kids LOVE these gatherings, and I'm sure it changes their view on life and what you are able to achieve and change (for the better/ funnier/more colourful) tremendously.

there's so much to do just in everybodies environment.

[Gautama]

i just reread this thread, and reilly i agree on the overpopulation problem, no way/ idea how to solve that, uhm well, without being nastily sarcastic that is. :wacky:

[nouratan]

i just reread this thread, and reilly i agree on the overpopulation problem, no way/ idea how to solve that, uhm well, without being nastily sarcastic that is. :wacky:

the western governments have found a solution :awesome:

war and famine

[Gautama]

but do you really think southern/eastern governments would be- ahem, sorry ARE- better than that, if they had more to say?

[nouratan]

no they just follow the ppl who really are ruling the world

[Gautama]

so?
i don't see how staying in the victim's position will help out here? i have a great article about this, it's from a tibetan guy, i'll try find it and post the link.


btw, wouldn't have african and asian people have done the very same if they had been in the position of colonialising europe?



do the people of indonesia care about the people of africa? do the palestinians care about the tibetan people? do african people care about palestinian people? etc.pp. aren't we just all total losers in one way or another?

[Gautama]

written by a tibetan. tibetans eat a lot of shit imposed on them by an eastern country. do the other eastern countries around care about that? :wideeyed:

about the cult of victimhood:

http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2010/03/31/cult-of-victimhood-two-studies/

[Gautama]

the western governments have found a solution :awesome:

war and famine

and thanks for reminding me of the unparalleled peaceful history of the asian, latin-american and african continents, where every nation loves the other and where there is no racism/ genocide or imperialism or religious fundamentalism. oha, and women have the greatestest of times most of all in africa and asia, it's one amusing party. :)


sorry for the sarcasm though. nouratan, i think you should give up the thought that the western governments are responsible for all the shit in this world. the west caused a lot of injustice, i think everybody right in his mind agrees on that. and the results are still plenty and do hurt, of course. but....

[Gitta Rensolo]

oh yeah, explaining stuff in english is absurdly difficult sometimes, non?
i'm literally frustrated with almost each of me posts.:freak:



we all are, don't you think? for what we do and don't do. just because this isn't a popular fact, it's still a fact, imo. and if more people saw that we all just forgot some fundamental facts, that would make the whole difference.
(i didn't mean that they are responsible for fukushima, if you thought i was referring to that?? :thinking: )



yep. but most people always wait for something big to happen/ someone other to start.
and start with what? well, i guess starting to live up to the factual responsibility ( which will be a great great pleasure for all of us, and can be realised with a lot of humour. i think there would be less depressed people for example, because there'll be more actual SENSE in this world. more soul, respect, love even ( love being the same as sense and responsibility- again - i really mean that.)

i do have a great example of an idea how to actually do sth. a friend of my mother roams the streets of her rather gloomy little german suburb with a hord of kids. they clean up the place, put color on the electricity boxes, plant fruits and vegetables in public places and take care of them. they are taking baths in the village fountain/ main square when it's ultra hot. plus loads of other great ideas, she's very creative. she teaches those kids active participation/ responsibility for their immediate surrounding. some of them are from extremely neglected backgrounds (both rich and poor), where they never get such input.
those kids LOVE these gatherings, and I'm sure it changes their view on life and what you are able to achieve and change (for the better/ funnier/more colourful) tremendously.

there's so much to do just in everybodies environment.

It is a shame that those things your friend's mother does are so rare. I've been considering doing something like that someday in the future...I don't know if it is just a vision or if it really changes something in their view of things and if I just imagine it to be much easier than it actually is (I think I am dreaming too much sometimes and reality is worse [of course])

I get rather worried about the future when I think about what our society will become or already has become...

though I kinda like the recent discussions about nuclear plants going on in this country...I have the impression that more people get aware of it esp. those who aren't usually interested in politics....I am afraid though that the government will fuck it up anyway and in some weeks or months nobody will be talking about it anymore....well not in such a serious way

(is this reply actually appropriate to this topic? I am serious, I barely reply in topics like this one, because I ama fraid I got have gotten anything wrong in what it is about...oh well)

[Gautama]

that's her. it's in german.



Wenn aber mehr und mehr Leute so was auf die Beine stellten, oder etwas anderes, je nachdem was man so kann, natürlich würde es die Welt ändern. Eh, jetzt kann ich auch kein Deutsch mehr, hahaha. Nighty Julia! :)


edit: oh ja, die Atomdebatte, mal sehen, was hinter dem Moratorium tatsächlich steckt. Glaube aber schon, das sich hier was ändert, also zumindest in Deutschland. Wir sind gar nicht so übel, im internationalen Vergleich!

[Gitta Rensolo]

that's her. it's in german.



Wenn aber mehr und mehr Leute so was auf die Beine stellten, oder etwas anderes, je nachdem was man so kann, natürlich würde es die Welt ändern. Eh, jetzt kann ich auch kein Deutsch mehr, hahaha. Nighty Julia! :)

ahh cool, dankeschön:wacko:

Ja, das auf jeden Fall....ich habe mir irgendwie zum Ziel gesetzt, dass ich irgendwann mal sowas mache...irgendwas um manche Dinge zu verändern...vlt mit Musik....nicht nur auf Umwelt bezogen, sondern unsre Gesellschaft allgemein....

wooo sorry guys

Nighty Valerie:nice:

edit to your edit: Ja ganz genau so sehe ich das auch! Und hm naja jetzt mal unter uns (haha) ich finde man erkennt die Präsenz der Debatte auch ein wenig hier im Forum, wenn man so die Threads zum Thema durchliest.....ich hab den Eindruck, dass wir da am meisten dagegen sind oder uns der Sache am meisten bewusst sind...keine Ahnung

[Gitta Rensolo]

btw....have you seen this, Valerie?

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,751683,00.html

found this some minutes ago....kinda appropriate to the edit in my post before....annoying article

[Gautama]

Oh ja, i've read that, not very meaningful, agreed. In fact I find the reduction of what happens here atm to being just hysterical rather cheap and senseless. i think she's historically wrong.

here's a piece about the same topic, which has a different approach to 'german angst'.
you'll feel much better after reading that.

http://www.zeit.de/2011/13/German-angst

[Gitta Rensolo]

ah nice article...I agree with...thanks for posting:)

[Braddock]

I don't see how this age is any more stupid than the others.
It's just reported a hell of a lot more and we are more aware of mistakes than we were.
There has always been greed, self interest, war and failure to protect the people sufficiently.
The Age Of Stupid is just a sound bite to try and provoke people into action, but hey, if it works then good stuff.

[Gautama]

"World headed for irreversible climate change in five years, IEA (International Energy Agency) warns

If fossil fuel infrastructure is not rapidly changed, the world will 'lose for ever' the chance to avoid dangerous climate change"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/fossil-fuel-infrastructure-climate-change


Thanks to everybody who thinks shit can go on like this for ever.
This is very much linked to the Occupying movement btw. Think for yourselves.
I cannot explain, beause if people seriously still don't see the connection between our Wests's consumption terror and all this. It's driving me crazy, that ignorance. Crazy.
Get active now, please. Goddamn...


http://www.geographicguide.com/pictures/earth-globe.jpg
Beautiful, don|t you think.

Our planet, ourselves, all those plants and scents, and sounds and animals and the great technologies we've invented, etc.etc.
Doesn't that mean anything to you? YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT (not for what was done in the past, but in regard of how to clean up this mess! START TAKING CARE NOW! WAKE UUUUUUUP, for God's sake. What information else do you need, Jesus Christ?
Go join your Occupying movement and help finding new ways of conduct among ourselves and in regard of all that's there on this planet. Because that'S what they are doing there, trying to do, hoping to achieve. But it needs much more of us, much much more.

Go demonstrate! If we are more and more, we might have a chance of changing things, you know. Regardless of our religious beliefs and sexual orientation and nationalities and and and. It might still be possible.

What's your fucking problem, guys. What's your fucking problem. Apathy? Is that an excuse
any longer, with the occupying movement? Nope, I'm sorry, it's not. IT'S NOT.

[Reilly]

Haven't you previously apologised for such presumptuous behaviour? I guess you don't learn. Welcome back AGAIN by the way (Though you didn't appear to actually leave? Attention seek much?).

Anyway, do you know how many articles like that have been written in the last decade? Also I believe at a few points new 'irreversible' damages to our atmosphere has actually happened, and now they're saying we have 5 years to literally stop climate change? Global warming is inevitable regardless of humans, whether we're speeding it up is the issue.

Its really naive if that article is your wake up call.

[Megalomania]

I'll let my great-great-grandchildren worry about this. :nice:

My thought process as well. :nice:

[Gautama]

The amalgamation of ecological destruction, unethical economics, ignorant or apathic masses, racism, misogyny but also misandry, homophobia, administrations profusely connected to mafias, sarcasm and douchebaggery on the internet (= immaturity of our species), denial of scientific facts, utterly meaningless religious fundamentalism, respectless distribution of resources, genocides (e.g, Tibetans), growing rates of depression and consumption of psychotropic drugs, generations of paedophile priests and teachers getting away with it, and and and, it's something I've been working against for very long (there goes my frustration and chut, maybe you understand that now).

But it doesn't help unless a majority of this world's people rise and say no. I'm very positive that the so called OWS movement is the start of exactly that, linked to that are ANONYMOUS who've been doing great things beyond hierarchies and vanity for much longer, those guys are brilliant. Google what they are planning to do in Mexico, they are real heroes of our times. I got to meet some of them in Frankfurt, wonderful, wonderful spirit so far. People are meeting all over the world now since October 15th (not much coverage in the mainstream media yet) and they discuss all this with each other. They talk and hope and think that they will find sustainable solutions for all that primitive shit we've all created. They think that focussing on that and putting our minds together and talking about our irritations and insecurities, that slowly, organically, something will come up, something prolly very new yet simple. As I've mentioned somewhere here , the practices to find a consensus from a greater lot of individuals, atm called general assemblies, are a key part of that. We need a massive paradigm shift inside our heads and collectively so for that to happen. I strongly believe, that when we get spring in the northern hemisphere, that this is going to become very very big. And then we can altogether really change the world. And I mean that, exactly as it stands there.

So I'll do my best to keep it rolling, as does Cobalt, as does Chuck with his enlightening posts and as does Nancy with tirelesslessly posting news about the mess, as do many more.

Had hoped to spark some sort of enthusiasm for the idea of trying to change the global and local perversions, because it needs more people! That's all.
Since there's so much silence from the rest of the board, I take it that the invocations really aren't appreciated much. :disappointed::D
Yep, it took me another round to get it. I really am sorry, if it's so annoying, my bad. I seem to create resistance rather than sympathy for the cause, me fool.
The way Nancy and Chuck try to raise awareness is less confrontative and thus far more talented. I'll go on doing the things that I'm talented at.

I've seen too many people here mentioning how they are depressed, that plain horror of a life, which I've suffered from myself far too long, is inseperably linked to the crazy lies we are swallowing every day. With our ethics changing to sustainability and true fun and care, many people can stop the self-desructive hopelessness, stop having to eat pills in order to cope with their lives. The women of Afghanistan can stop burning themselves which many do as the only means to get free from the woman-hating primitive culture they were born in. We can altogether think of how to cope with overpopulation. Ha, many women in the third world would be happy to NOT bear ANY child, if they would get asked. Tibetans and many other refugees can go home to their countries and start healing the wounds which all our ignorance has brought upon them.
We can put up administrations, run by ourselves, which favour and encourage sustainability and empathy rather than greed. We still need to deal with sickness and death and
criminal minds. But we might find solutions. That's what we are discussing in those camps. How can anyone make fun of that. How can you call this attention-seeking, when I try to tell you about all that.


@Reilly, maybe you read this wiki-site, it's about a manipulative technique, which you (unconsciously, I'm sure) started using in the tea-party-thread.
It's called 'gaslighting', and...hm... I'm not playing such games, that's why I decided to step out of that conversation. I honestly, though apparently too lowbrow for you,
tried to solve our misunderstandings, but you reacted with sheer mild gaslighting again and again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
A tad wittier and smarter than McSquared, but it's still the same unintelligent bullshit. I'm far too tired of that to get examples from your posts, because I only expect further
gaslighting and denial of it being what it is. I expect you to now mention how I was a coward to not give examples. But now that I mentioned that, I expect you to tell me again how arrogant I am to assume such things and blahblahblah. That truly is a bit too dumb for me.
From my point of view this makes you what you guys call being a tool for the current system, championing apathy and the mocking of idealsists (whom in my book are the realists, btw). Since you are actually a caring and helpful person a lot here, which I always liked about you (and have mentioned that in #Tea Party),
I still don't fully get what went wrong. I still am sorry for my part in this, which you keep ignoring.


I wonder, if the rising of people being fed up gets very massive next spring or even this winter, what position you guys will take then. :sneaky:
I totes get it, that you will have a tiny blast about how senseless my efforts (and the others', who leave you alone?!) am when it won't happen.

OH SUCH THE SHAME! :P

[Reilly]

What does THAT have to do with what I wrote in this topic? And you're totally right, I am going to say you're being arrogant to just assume that everything is on me, and once again resort to this grander picture of how what I'm saying is totally irrelevant because it's part of some big ploy I suddenly have against you. You're paranoid.

The only thing I can relate this 'gaslighting' to is that I did mention you said you were leaving the forum, well you did, on my VM page, on a few different topics on here. While we're on mental disorders, if you can't remember that I think you conveniently block things out. When it comes to making actual examples to prove your maddening conspiracy theories about me your always 'too tired' or 'above that', it's a load of bullshit. If you really had anything you would tell me about it, that I'm sure of.

My post in this thread was mainly about how this is yet another "final warning" Guardian article, and I do read the Guardian but every paper has its flaws. Try and focus on what I'm writing for once instead of constantly trying to piece it together with some big jigsaw that I'm apparently against everything about you and everything you stand for, I've seen plenty of your posts recently and they've mainly been fine or ignorable, this time the one in this thread was just too annoying for me not to say anything.