Do you think following God always means "you are doing the right thing"?

[Space Invader]

?

[ricardo]

As long as what you believe is right and it doesn't affect the others.
Edit: fixed.
Edit 2: But then, maybe if you affect the others you believe you are doing the good thing according to you and.... well I should not think so much.

[noonsun]

Whoever believes this deserves to be shot.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

I think...
That not everybody believes in God.
Not talking about myself.
Just, many religions, many people.

And.. he wants us to do stuff for a reason.
Even if we don't agree with him, we have to do those things.

[chuck kottke]

Why follow God all the time? Why not take the lead once in a while?:P (we are all part of the known Universe; our particles mingled with those from ancient times, had some nice hor devours and mead, and go back all the way to the formative forces that started with the big bang. ) Just honor truth, above all else (and remember to enjoy life once in a while. Even Socrates did!).

[Space Invader]

I think...
That not everybody believes in God.
Not talking about myself.
Just, many religions, many people.

And.. he wants us to do stuff for a reason.
Even if we don't agree with him, we have to do those things.

I dont think you have to believe in God to do the right thing... "right thing" meaning: not to hurt anybody. If you are raised by parents who have never visited a church... dont believe in God... or any kind of spirit entity... and you havent got that education... does that mean that you're automatically going to hell? Any christian here would think so?

In my opinion, it doesnt have to do with religion or anything about that... is just... being human... treat people the way you want to be treated..

I feel disgusted by just watching people do things in the name of God, and end up twisting everything to their favor... hypocrisy

[Dfit00]

Philosophical threads are my favorite. :sweatdrop:

But yeah, and no.

[Pseudonym]

The Israel-Palestine conflict is fought in the name of God. Is it right?

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

I dont think you have to believe in God to do the right thing... "right thing" meaning: not to hurt anybody. If you are raised by parents who have never visited a church... dont believe in God... or any kind of spirit entity... and you havent got that education... does that mean that you're automatically going to hell? Any christian here would think so?

In my opinion, it doesnt have to do with religion or anything about that... is just... being human... treat people the way you want to be treated..

I feel disgusted by just watching people do things in the name of God, and end up twisting everything to their favor... hypocrisy

I have no idea.. I was raised like that: Do something wrong -> hell.
Do right -> heaven.

And well, that last part reminds me of that episode where Chase kills Dibala, saying he did the right thing, and then in confession the priest told him he had no right.
It's all.. complicated. obviously you can't hurt people just because you think they're bad. It's.. not human.
I think we all need to treat everyone the way we want them to treat us.

[Tnspieler1012]

argh, this could be a fruitful thread if it wasn't so open-ended and asking for trouble. Now its just gonna be chaotic, disconnected bickering. I've recently been exploring theistic existentialism, particularly kierkegaards notion of faith as irrational and truth as subjectivity. But in response to the question, we first have to come to a consensus on 'what it means to follow God' 'if God exists' and if so... 'what does God want?'. Its so open-ended that I don't think anyone can sufficiently address that question.

[Pseudonym]

argh, this could be a fruitful thread if it wasn't so open-ended and asking for trouble. Now its just gonna be chaotic, disconnected bickering. I've recently been exploring theistic existentialism, particularly kierkegaards notion of faith as irrational and truth as subjectivity. But in response to the question, we first have to come to a consensus on 'what it means to follow God' 'and what God wants'. Its so open-ended that I don't think anyone can sufficiently address that question.
THIS of course

[Josh42]

Can't be arsed to read previous comments...has anyone brought up Islamic extremism?

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Islamic extremism scares me.
Glad to be catholic.. even if I suck at being a good one.

[MrLick]

The Israel-Palestine conflict is fought in the name of God. Is it right?

What wars aren't? Humans use any excuse for violence. If God was not believed by anyone men would have wars in the name of other things.

[Pseudonym]

Can't be arsed to read previous comments...has anyone brought up Islamic extremism?
But every religion has extremism. All religions are hyporcritical and all religions have killed many people in the name of their religion. Yes, even Christianity.

But that doesn't make any of them bad, it doesn't make them anything. No religion is better than another, it just depends on you.

And for the Christians who claim their religion is the only one (all religions do this but I hear it most from Christians), Hinduism and Toaism have been around a heck of a lot longer, so don't assume yours was the original religion.

[chuck kottke]

Kierkegaards, now there's a road to Norwegianism!:laugh3: God is big daddy (or big mommy, depending on the religion). In the nexus of human experience, if we respect one-another, and work towards the common good, understanding the need for fair play and selflessness to trump selfish desires in the main, but when appropriate self-indulgent behavior is healthy. Best to share the fun, methinks, but times for introspection are important too. It's situational, and subject to the individual - where would we be without those few obsessed individuals, who devote their lives to one purpose? Groups that work together for a common goal? Or generalists, who sample many things, and can put together a larger view for all to enjoy?? To each there is a role to play, and circumstances shape our choices as much as individual decisions do..
And God became the fog.

[Pseudonym]

What wars aren't? Humans use any excuse for violence. If God was not believed by anyone men would have wars in the name of other things.
Exactly. In America we 'justify' our wars in other ways.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

And for the Christians who claim their religion is the only one (all religions do this but I hear it most from Christians), Hinduism and Toaism have been around a heck of a lot longer, so don't assume yours was the original religion.

Wait.. so you're not Christian?

[MrLick]

Exactly. In America we 'justify' our wars in other ways.

Iraq still has wmd's...

[an angel]

But every religion has extremism. All religions are hyporcritical and all religions have killed many people in the name of their religion. Yes, even Christianity.

But that doesn't make any of them bad, it doesn't make them anything. No religion is better than another, it just depends on you.

And for the Christians who claim their religion is the only one (all religions do this but I hear it most from Christians), Hinduism and Toaism have been around a heck of a lot longer, so don't assume yours was the original religion.

No duh Christianity isn't the original religion. It's a continuation of Judaism... (can't think of the right way to say that).

[chuck kottke]

What wars aren't? Humans use any excuse for violence. If God was not believed by anyone men would have wars in the name of other things.
True - Hitler's Nazis vs. Stalin's so-called Communists is one example where religion wasn't used as an excuse to fight. I think it all boils down to power-hungry individuals co-opting religion and culture to further their aims of control and conquest.. True - it's used as an excuse at times to start a conflict - & a poor one at that.
I like the saying "who would Jesus bomb?" - kinda puts it all into perspective..

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

No duh Christianity isn't the original religion. It's a continuation of Judaism... (can't think of the right way to say that).

That's new for me.

[an angel]

That's new for me.

They have the same roots.

[Pseudonym]

Wait.. so you're not Christian?
No. I'm not part of any specific religion, but that's not to say I don't believe in God. I am also knowledgeable in pretty much every major religion and base my life partly on aspects from each. If I had to choose a 'favorite': Hinduism.
Iraq still has wmd's...
LMAO
No duh Christianity isn't the original religion. It's a continuation of Judaism... (can't think of the right way to say that).
It actually was a cult that branched off of Judaism and spread like wildfire.

That's new for me.
Seriously? (see above)

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

They have the same roots.

I know, I just never thought of it that way.


Anyway, if I was a crappy politician or dictator or whatever, and I really wanted oil, I'd just try to buy or ask for it, I wouldn't kill them just because I found out they have a different religion.

[MrLick]

Judaism is older then Taoism and Buddhism.

[Josh42]

But every religion has extremism. All religions are hyporcritical and all religions have killed many people in the name of their religion. Yes, even Christianity.

But that doesn't make any of them bad, it doesn't make them anything. No religion is better than another, it just depends on you.

And for the Christians who claim their religion is the only one (all religions do this but I hear it most from Christians), Hinduism and Toaism have been around a heck of a lot longer, so don't assume yours was the original religion.

I only singled out Islamic extremism because it probably has a bigger impact on the world today than any other religious extremisms. I'm not saying Christians haven't done bad things before, it's just that today Islamic extremism is a major issue.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Seriously? (see above)

Yep.

[Pseudonym]

I only singled out Islamic extremism because it probably has a bigger impact on the world today than any other religious extremisms. I'm not saying Christians haven't done bad things before, it's just that today Islamic extremism is a major issue.
I know that, and I tried to show that in my wording. I knew you knew.

[chuck kottke]

The original religion was probably worshiping the mother Goddess, but that's more of an anthropological & archaeological matter..
Back to the question "Do you think following God always means "you are doing the right thing"?
Perhaps inherent in the question is what do the teachings of the religion say, and are they consistent, contradictory at times, and unquestionable?

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Wars are a big piece of shit..

[Strawberry Rain]

I'm Muslim, and I think Muslim extremists are batshit crazy.

But anyway, I doubt that wars, genocide, etc. would really be the kind of think requested by any sort of god. Would any sort of god (who, in fact, according to all religions, wants humans to thrive and live peaceful lives) want the Crusades? The wars in the Middle East? It really amazes (and kind of scares me) me how some people want awful things to happen "in the name of God".

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

But anyway, I doubt that wars, genocide, etc. would really be the kind of think requested by any sort of god. Would any sort of god (who, in fact, according to all religions, wants humans to thrive and live peaceful lives) want the Crusades? The wars in the Middle East? It really amazes (and kind of scares me) me how some people want awful things to happen "in the name of God".

It's not God's fault..
There are some crazy asses all over the world thinking that killing people from a certain religion will clean the planet or something. Hitler reference I guess..
It's all in human mind.
God doesn't tell you to hurt.

[chuck kottke]

True - unfortunately, woven into many religions are stories of wars, justified as "good wars".. Not the central teachings, but still, therein lies the problem - kooks can use these bits to justify their extremism. Religious states scare me, regardless of the religion. And my own nation has it's own kooks for sure - with their use of religion to justify their warring ways..

[jenflor]

I dont think you have to believe in God to do the right thing... "right thing" meaning: not to hurt anybody. If you are raised by parents who have never visited a church... dont believe in God... or any kind of spirit entity... and you havent got that education... does that mean that you're automatically going to hell? Any christian here would think so?

In my opinion, it doesnt have to do with religion or anything about that... is just... being human... treat people the way you want to be treated..

I feel disgusted by just watching people do things in the name of God, and end up twisting everything to their favor... hypocrisy
I completely agree with everything you said here.

I have no idea.. I was raised like that: Do something wrong -> hell.
Do right -> heaven.


But is that the only reason to do right? to get to heaven? to avoid hell?

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

But is that the only reason to do right? to get to heaven? to avoid hell?

Well.. if heaven means a peaceful state, I guess so.
But also, you're bad and you do bad stuff = you don't give a shit and you don't believe in God.
Do good stuff = you care, and you want good stuff after you die, in case you believe in heaven and hell.

[jenflor]

I see what you're saying, but I guess what I meant was...
I would hope we do good because it's the right thing to do... not merely because if we don't, we'll go to hell.

I would like to think that people can determine what "good" or "right" is without god or religion having to define it for them.

[Tnspieler1012]

My approach to religion is to suspend care about the afterlife. Its just an obstacle of reason and most of the ways we depict heaven and hell are the result of human fabrication, hell is scarcely even mentioned in the Bible. In my opinion its a sin to let fear influence your pursuit of truth.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

My approach to religion is to suspend care about the afterlife. Its just an obstacle of reason and most of the ways we depict heaven and hell are the result of human fabrication, hell is scarcely even mentioned in the Bible. In my opinion its a sin to let fear influence your pursuit of truth.

So, are you implying that there's nothing after death?

[Tnspieler1012]

So, are you implying that there's nothing after death?
not at all. I'm saying its unethical to let your emotions, hopes and fears about what may or may not happen after death influence your actions.

Edit: All I care about is truth, whatever that may be. And letting emotions get in the way of reason often leads to a life motivated by fear or fabricated hope. Its important that we pursue truth regardless of how scary or beautiful it might be. To quote Thoreau...

"I wanted to live deep and suck out the marrow of life...If it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, publish its meanness to the world; or if it were sublime, to know it by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion."

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

not at all. I'm saying its unethical to let your emotions, hopes and fears about what may or may not happen after death influence your actions.

But we can't be rational all the time, and we mainly act based on emotions, at least that's what I think.
Why is it unethical? I think that you just care, or not.
If you care, you'll do it right.

[chuck kottke]

There is a neural network, and the cycle of life provides the nexus of connections, our minds, linked, and echoing throughout time and space.. The afterlife is in my mind what those who are living bring forward in time with them, of our memories. But there could be more - it would be unscientific to rule out the possibility, however remote as it may seem..
But I think of it in terms of the kind of world we want to live in, and the kind of world we want to be carried forth. Good patterns of peace, justice, enlightenment, and progress enhance our lives and the lives of our fellow time travelers. If we want a world that approaches heaven, then that is what we need to work towards.. It takes imagination to see the value of joy that will be for our next generation to live in, and to be willing to sacrifice for the betterment of humanity, or share in the experience that brings some greater happiness for all.
Just ramblings..

[Tnspieler1012]

But we can't be rational all the time, and we mainly act based on emotions, at least that's what I think.
Why is it unethical? I think that you just care, or not.
If you care, you'll do it right.

Sorry, my edit came late...

What I'm getting at is, when I was pretty young, by greatest conviction was a refusal to belief that there was nothing after death. But when I matured, I came to realize how wrong that way of thinking was. I had built my faith on a childish wish, a denial even. I was so afraid of the prospect of non existence, that I mndlessly clung to the alternative. Regardless of whether or not there is a God or an afterlife, that sort of behavior was truly ignorant.

Now, if that mindset carries over to our moral choices, and we behave towards others in a way motivated by our hope of getting to heaven or avoiding hell, instead of sincere love...that, I find disintegritous, because you're motivated by a similar selfishness by which suicide bombers act. Jesus's primary message was love of God, and thy neighbor. And whoever loves his/her neighbor, in turn, loves God. So I guess the distinction I'm making is we shouldn't care about heaven or hell, but instead act upon what we believe is right. The rest is just incentive and bribery, as well intended it may be.

[Tnspieler1012]

I'm at a pretty strong Christian college, and I was deeply upset by a discussion in a sociology class last year where people were arguing that its pointless for atheists to act morally. I rebuttled saying that morality is a human obligation, that regardless of religion we are aware that it is wrong to steal or murder, and that I have far more more respect for atheists who act upon what is right, than a quote unquote Christian who acts the same way only because they expect some reward from God.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Jesus's primary message was love of God, and thy neighbor. And whoever loves his/her neighbor, in turn, loves God.

True.

[Pseudonym]

I'm Muslim, and I think Muslim extremists are batshit crazy.

But anyway, I doubt that wars, genocide, etc. would really be the kind of think requested by any sort of god. Would any sort of god (who, in fact, according to all religions, wants humans to thrive and live peaceful lives) want the Crusades? The wars in the Middle East? It really amazes (and kind of scares me) me how some people want awful things to happen "in the name of God".
Are you really from Antarctica? :thinking:

It's because people originally used the name of God as a way to justify doing selfish things. The Catholic Church selling sin repention for money for example, and Holy Wars another example. Any religious texts can be interpreted to fit the reader's whim and that leads to dangerous justifications.


It's not God's fault..
There are some crazy asses all over the world thinking that killing people from a certain religion will clean the planet or something. Hitler reference I guess..
It's all in human mind.
God doesn't tell you to hurt.
Though Western religions tend to be more apt to hurting people. In the Quran it says those who praise Allah will be blessed, those who do not believe will receive despair.

Similar in Christianity where non-believers are damned to hell if they don't repent their sins and accept Jesus (speaking generally here, some Protestant religions have variations).


In my opinion its a sin to let fear influence your pursuit of truth.
If I was to have a quote in my sig, this would be it.

Sorry, the humping smiley still has that spot.

[chuck kottke]

True - I feel the same. Simplistic motivators and simplistic thinking can be misused to lead people into doing the unthinkable. Better to seek a better world in that which is tangible through our senses and common sense.
Lasting happiness is one which is not achieve simply on the whims of the moment, but through a deeper understanding and appreciation of the roles we play in life. (but having moments of fun on occasion helps!)

[ricardo]

Religion sucks.

[chuck kottke]

I'm at a pretty strong Christian college, and I was deeply upset by a discussion in a sociology class last year where people were arguing that its pointless for atheists to act morally. I rebuttled saying that morality is a human obligation, that regardless of religion we are aware that it is wrong to steal or murder, and that I have far more more respect for atheists who act upon what is right, than a quote unquote Christian who acts the same way only because they expect some reward from God.
If atheists see the whole universe as an equation and set of physical laws, then it takes civility and civil society to allow us to unravel the mysteries. Hence, something that breaks that greater social contract to be fair with one another reduces our potential (as individuals and collectively) to gain that greater insight. You're right - morality is a human obligation, and we are inherently aware that it is wrong to steal or murder - in fact, compassion as I understand is innate in human nature, as science is showing us this to be true. We are not simply born "sinful", nor strictly self-interested. I am not an atheist, but I do understand atheists, and atheism - and perhaps to disregard atheism is simply done out of fear of actually discussing and considering some of the valid points Atheism might bring to the table about what is true and what is not?

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

Religion sucks.

No

[Pseudonym]

True - I feel the same. Simplistic motivators and simplistic thinking can be misused to lead people into doing the unthinkable. Better to seek a better world in that which is tangible through our senses and common sense.
Lasting happiness is one which is not achieve simply on the whims of the moment, but through a deeper understanding and appreciation of the roles we play in life. (but having moments of fun on occasion helps!)
Agreed. I think it's perfectly okay and healthy to practice religion in a group setting (ie, church) but your own beliefs and morals should come from how you interpret life and your religion's role, not what your local minister, priests, etc tells you. Use social religion to strengthen your bond with your beliefs, but find your own path and live for what you believe. No good comes from worshiping 'men of God'.


Religion sucks.
Way to be ric.

[ricardo]

Religions Suck. God doesn't. Except when he lets his wicked sense of
humor run free.

[chuck kottke]

And Dog licks. Of course, God spelled backwards is Dog, so there has to be a cosmic connection! I'm otta' here!:escaping3:

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

^not funny.

[chuck kottke]

:Pbiteme.

[i'maveryneatMonster.']

No, thanks.

I'm surprised that I posted here.. I try to avoid this kind of conversations..
Maybe it's loneliness.. I'm pathetic.

[Zeya]

I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I'm quite a strong believer.
For me, what's the purpose in holding on to a religion if you don't have faith in its God?
I don't have any doubt in God's will, only the people who preach it wrongly.

[ricardo]

E=mc^2

[chuck kottke]

Also mass=Energy/speed of light^2. It takes a lot of energy just to make a tiny bit of matter, so use energy wisely - it really does matter!:P (alright, it's a poor pun, but I couldn't resist the pull of gravity..)

[onute]

I dont think you have to believe in God to do the right thing... "right thing" meaning: not to hurt anybody. If you are raised by parents who have never visited a church... dont believe in God... or any kind of spirit entity... and you havent got that education... does that mean that you're automatically going to hell? Any christian here would think so?

In my opinion, it doesnt have to do with religion or anything about that... is just... being human... treat people the way you want to be treated..

I feel disgusted by just watching people do things in the name of God, and end up twisting everything to their favor... hypocrisy

Yes, following God doesn't mean that you are always doing right things, clearly christians do sins and so on.

Now about what you ask.I asked that question one theologian, he said that it doesn't mean that you go to hell, if you are not a christian. He said that the things God gave you, later he expects from you. For example, if you was born in the christians family, but you ignore decalogue, and you are too lazy to go to church and you don't give a shit, then that is wrong, i guess.

I don't see Christianity religion that categorical, it teaches you what is wrong and right, but on the whole it lets everyone for himself to decide that.

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

Nope. :D
Following God does not necessarily make you a better person.
But the majority of people who do follow god are trying to do the "right" thing.

[Tnspieler1012]

^ so how do you answer the question? you just answered two different ones.

[HorrificAttack]

As Karl Marx once said "Religion is the opium of the masses"

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

Me? :confused:
well to simplify, Nope :P
I do not think following god always means "you are doing the right thing"

[HorrificAttack]

Of course it fucking doesn't, how many people have died in the name of a fictional being? It's a fucking disgrace.

[Tnspieler1012]

kk

[HorrificAttack]

Yes, following God doesn't mean that you are always doing right things, clearly christians do sins and so on.

Now about what you ask.I asked that question one theologian, he said that it doesn't mean that you go to hell, if you are not a christian. He said that the things God gave you, later he expects from you. For example, if you was born in the christians family, but you ignore decalogue, and you are too lazy to go to church and you don't give a shit, then that is wrong, i guess.

I don't see Christianity religion that categorical, it teaches you what is wrong and right, but on the whole it lets everyone for himself to decide that.

Have you actually read the bible? Cos this sounds nothing like the Christianity I know.

[Tnspieler1012]

Of course it fucking doesn't, how many people have died in the name of a fictional being? It's a fucking disgrace.
that's operating on the assumption that God wanted people killed. 'in the name' doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God's will. The debate is, if God exists and exists as a personal being...are his commands arbitrary or does he command that we always do the 'right' thing? I don't think anyone who subscribes to religion believes they're doing a 'wrong' thing in the name of God. But if there is one, actual, personal God overlooking the earth...what actions of man would he condone? And then, how do we determine if they are 'right'?

Cutting through all the questions, let me ask you...'as an atheist, do you believe there is a universal code of morality that applies to everyone, and determines what is 'right and wrong'?

[onute]

Have you actually read the bible? Cos this sounds nothing like the Christianity I know.

Yes I have read it, not the whole, also I go to church, there they read it. Bible is a book to interpret.

[HorrificAttack]

that's operating on the assumption that God wanted people killed. 'in the name' doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God's will. The debate is, if God exists and exists as a personal being...are his commands arbitrary or does he command that we always do the 'right' thing? I don't think anyone who subscribes to religion believes they're doing a 'wrong' thing in the name of God. But if there is one, actual, personal God overlooking the earth...what actions of man would he condone? And then, how do we determine if they are 'right'?

Cutting through all the questions, let me ask you...'as an atheist, do you believe there is a universal code of morality that applies to everyone, and determines what is 'right and wrong'?

God doesn't command anything, even if he does exist, he's quite clearly not involved with our world right now. God ordered the murder and rape of people in the bible on many occasions, if God is the be all and end all of morality, how can he possibly do this and then tell us that it's bad? If God is real he's a fucking idiot.

I think you can work out morals logically, you don't need a magical being to tell you what is right and wrong, it's not universal though, it's very much situational, my morals will differ greatly from someone living in a different part of the world

[HorrificAttack]

Yes I have read it, not the whole, also I go to church, there they read it. Bible is a book to interpret.

You can not "interpret" clear commands. Which are the things I have an issue with.

[onute]

You can not "interpret" clear commands. Which are the things I have an issue with.

Can you name the commands that you disagree with?:thinking:

[HorrificAttack]

Can you name the commands that you disagree with?:thinking:

There is a section which tells you to "slay" non-believers then go to their house, slay their family and burn down their house.

[Tnspieler1012]

I think you're talking about the most ethically disputable parts of the Bible in Joshua and partly in Samuel. Where it says that God ordered them to destroy everyone and everything within sinful cities that God condemned.
Christians react to this in numerous ways. Some reject the old testament altogether, and emphasize the fact that Jesus clarified and dismissed parts of the old jewish laws and customs, showing a loving, more reasonable God that starkly contrasts the old testament God. Others try to justify these actions based on the way their enemies were equally, if not much more cruel and others believe some of these commands to have been fabricated by the writers in order to justify the actions of the hebrew people.

[onute]

There is a section which tells you to "slay" non-believers then go to their house, slay their family and burn down their house.

I don't know that part. But every act can be differently conceived, in some ways it can be considered as a sin, in others not. Murder can also be justified.

A lot of people quote some parts of a bible as stupid and illogical, once even one our teacher was reading the first page of a bible and laughing after every word which seemed to him so irrational. :\ I don't pay much attention to everything what is said there. And the thing with Eve and Adam is a beautiful tale for me. It's an old book and people not God was writing it!

But as I go to the church from my deep childhood, Christianity gave me a strong moral education, it affected my personality a lot, I totally think it made me a better person than I could have grown up without it. I know when I was a kid it was easier for me to believe than now, I have doubts, but I still pray and I believe it helps. It's just a magical thing.

Have you ever been in a religious feast? Where people go on their knees around the altar and they kiss the stones on which the virgin showed up, i was doing that this summer with my grandmother, i was ironical to all this thing and laughing inside me but when i made myself to do that, I felt magic :wacko:

[chuck kottke]

I dunno. When Abraham was commanded by god to take his only son Isaac up to the altar, and then slay him as a sacrifice, even though at the last minute god commanded Abraham not to do it, I kind of wonder what sort of god would ask anyone to do something like that in the first place, just to test their loyalty?! Or not allowing the Israelites to enter their kingdom just because they forgot to make a sacrifice on one holy day? Sounds pretty extreme to me, and very heavy-handed.
And there's worse, but I'll spare everyone the gory details.
Better to have more cause-and-effect teachings, and less 'almighty wrath' stuff methinks.
The idea that we should "fear the lord" is quite simplistic and readily prone to abuse by those in power - I prefer a more logical, reasoned approach myself.
Plus, why does the bible create a male image of God? Sounds rather unequal, if you ask me. Older religions worshiped the mother Goddess; and in some ways this is carried forth in the worship of Mary, a virtuous woman and naturally the mother of Jesus (who's father was probably Joseph, as what sort of God would make immutable laws of nature that can be broken?).
So I think religion is evolving, and getting closer to the ethics we have come to understand in the modern world. Following God means to me following what is right in your heart, and listening to others, considering their thoughts as well.
Mohamed said that Men, Women, and Children are all equal in the eyes of God if I understand correctly - well advanced in terms of equal rights!

[мaямellata]

i think that people shouldn't judge others on what they believe in,
if i'm a catholic or a christian or whatever you shouldn't automatically think i'm a certain way.. & vice-versa.

[Space Invader]

i think that people shouldn't judge others on what they believe in,
if i'm a catholic or a christian or whatever you shouldn't automatically think i'm a certain way.. & vice-versa.

who's judging... ? :thinking:

[ricardo]

Most religions are still very primitive in their way of thinking, seriously, no offense intended, god in a piece of bread? A matter of faith etc I know all those stuff since I was in a catholic school. But God can be wherever you want, and there's no need to go to a ritual to please him nor donate money to indolent and manipulative men.
When Spaniards came, they killed thousands of natives for what? They destroyed their codes, monuments, cities and their culture. They did all that in the name of God (and also to strengthen their dominion). They thought that they were definitively wrong, they could not understand their way of thinking and living, hence fear is their first reaction to destroy everything. That was made according to their religious beliefs and to prove wrong the native's ones. But who was really right?
Also mass=Energy/speed of light^2. It takes a lot of energy just to make a tiny bit of matter, so use energy wisely - it really does matter!:P (alright, it's a poor pun, but I couldn't resist the pull of gravity..)
:D
As Karl Marx once said "Religion is the opium of the masses"
*applauses*
Kind of related to Roman's panem et circenses (bread and circuses).



Excuse spelling mistakes, I are mexican and typing hastily lolz

[Tnspieler1012]

I dunno. When Abraham was commanded by god to take his only son Isaac up to the altar, and then slay him as a sacrifice, even though at the last minute god commanded Abraham not to do it, I kind of wonder what sort of god would ask anyone to do something like that in the first place, just to test their loyalty?! Or not allowing the Israelites to enter their kingdom just because they forgot to make a sacrifice on one holy day? Sounds pretty extreme to me, and very heavy-handed.
And there's worse, but I'll spare everyone the gory details.
Better to have more cause-and-effect teachings, and less 'almighty wrath' stuff methinks.The idea that we should "fear the lord" is quite simplistic and readily prone to abuse by those in power - I prefer a more logical, reasoned approach myself.

Its this paradoxical scenario that intrigues me so much with kierkegaard. If that were to happen today, people would sooner check in to an asylum than anything else. You have to either A. reject the accuracy of the story, book, or old testament as fallacious and uninspired by God. B. View God's will as illogical and subjective, demanding a fideist approach to a faith. C. something else

Plus, why does the bible create a male image of God? Sounds rather unequal, if you ask me. Older religions worshiped the mother Goddess; and in some ways this is carried forth in the worship of Mary, a virtuous woman and naturally the mother of Jesus (who's father was probably Joseph, as what sort of God would make immutable laws of nature that can be broken?).
So I think religion is evolving, and getting closer to the ethics we have come to understand in the modern world. Following God means to me following what is right in your heart, and listening to others, considering their thoughts as well.
Mohamed said that Men, Women, and Children are all equal in the eyes of God if I understand correctly - well advanced in terms of equal rights!

While Christianity refers to God as He/Him/Father etc. Those terms are merely symbolic and a way of referring to God without saying 'it' or nothing at all (like in judaism), God has no gender, and theologians would explain Jesus incarnation has a man, simply as the most pragmatic, considering women in authority were frowned upon in those days.

[мaямellata]

who's judging... ? :thinking:
i wasn't referring to you specifically, i was just giving my opinion.

[Space Invader]

i wasn't referring to you specifically, i was just giving my opinion.

I know you weren't... pregunté por que no noté ninguna clase de "juicio" ni el primer post... o con lo que han venido posteando hasta ahora. :nice:

[мaямellata]

a perdon,
la vdd no ley los posts anteriores.. deveria supongo.
solo pense decir eso es todo..

[noonsun]

Organized religion is one of the worst things to happen to humanity. Yes, people would still kill for stupid and bigoted reasons without it, but the fact that they do so and have done so for so long thinking that they are deliverers of divine justice sickens me.

And don't need some fictional "God" to tell me what's right and what's wrong -- if you're not fucking retarded it's pretty easy to tell, in general hurting people = bad, doing nice things = good... do you really need some sort of fictional promise of an afterlife to motivate you to do good things? Humanity's sense of "right" and "wrong," or its sense of "compassion" is clearly biologically hardwired, you don't need religion to tell you that. People invented religion because they're terrified of death, not for any moral reasons.

[coldplay_is_louve.]

Organized religion is one of the worst things to happen to humanity. Yes, people would still kill for stupid and bigoted reasons without it, but the fact that they do so and have done so for so long thinking that they are deliverers of divine justice sickens me.

And don't need some fictional "God" to tell me what's right and what's wrong -- if you're not fucking retarded it's pretty easy to tell, in general hurting people = bad, doing nice things = good... do you really need some sort of fictional promise of an afterlife to motivate you to do good things? Humanity's sense of "right" and "wrong," or its sense of "compassion" is clearly biologically hardwired, you don't need religion to tell you that. People invented religion because they're terrified of death, not for any moral reasons.

THIS.

[onute]

Uh religion came from wanting to know what is the sun, moon, trees, etc, generaly whole world. Does science explain the meaning of the world? So... people just can choose what to believe.

You know a story how one surgeon dissected the body and said: voila there is no soul! We can't see God and we are not able to see everything. And Christianity is just a subjective experience. It helps for many people to survive difficult periods.

In my opinion, religion will always be. Maybe it will change, as those old saint books are too old for us and too controversial and we don't like those fusty principles and traditions..... but there will be something, joining love and goodness, teaching spirituality.

[The Escapist]

I think lots of you guys and girls take the Bible to fundementally. I'll agree, their is a lot of stuff in the old testament I don't understand but ou have to think about the context in which it is written as well. Think about the people thousands of years ago who wrote it and how they would've seen the world and the different conventions they use.

[HorrificAttack]

Uh religion came from wanting to know what is the sun, moon, trees, etc, generaly whole world. Does science explain the meaning of the world? So... people just can choose what to believe.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

Religion is NOT in any way shape or form seeking KNOWLEDGE, fuck you.

It hinders knowledge and has done at several time periods.

"God did it" is just such a cheap way to explain something you don't understand, it's just ignorance disguised.

How dare you insult science by saying that, fucking dick.

Why do you need meaning? Is the meaning that we are just to obey some superior being so amazing? I find that a disgusting prospect in all honesty.

[onute]

Oh what a science lover!:D Yes, religion is not knowledge. It's more spiritual things. You know, scientist says HOW earth is made and religion says WHY it's made. Can science be instead of religion?

Well religion helped to educate people......:thinking:

What do you mean to obey god? To do what says decalogue, go to the church, confessionals, that is disgusting? These are parts of the whole thing, but the meaning is to love each other.

[HorrificAttack]

Oh what a science lover!:D Yes, religion is not knowledge. It's more spiritual things. You know, scientist says HOW earth is made and religion says WHY it's made. Can science be instead of religion?

Well religion helped to educate people......:thinking:

What do you mean to obey god? To do what says decalogue, go to the church, confessionals, that is disgusting? These are parts of the whole thing, but the meaning is to love each other.

Science is why things are made too, just because the answer isn't "a magic man made it" doesn't mean that it doesn't say why. Science does kind of cancel out God, it disgusts me a little bit when I see a scientist or a mathematician who is religious.

Religion did anything but educate people, in the UK the Romans brought to us a wealth of knowledge about medicine and everything good, they pretty much sorted out our backwards society. Then they leave, religion comes in, tells everyone that the stuff the Romans taught us, destroyed everything they brought and burned the books, so we just lost all of the medical knowledge we had and we took a massive step back into the dark ages, like the filth ridden retards god wanted us to be. More modern times religion is strongly against Stem Cell research which could potentially save millions of lives, so fuck you and fuck religion.

I think it's disgusting how you can think your meaning of life is to please this "God" who clearly doesn't give a fuck about you. How does religion tell you to love each other? The Beatles told me to love each other, not God, not religion. Religion told me to be biased and hate others.

[prospekthd42]

The Beatles told me to love each other, not God, not religion. Religion told me to be biased and hate others.

:heart:

[Tnspieler1012]

its funny, I used to be horribly afraid of hardcore atheists. Now they're sort of amusing.

[an angel]

The Bible never says to hate others or be biased...

[onute]

Science is why things are made too, just because the answer isn't "a magic man made it" doesn't mean that it doesn't say why. Science does kind of cancel out God, it disgusts me a little bit when I see a scientist or a mathematician who is religious.

Religion did anything but educate people, in the UK the Romans brought to us a wealth of knowledge about medicine and everything good, they pretty much sorted out our backwards society. Then they leave, religion comes in, tells everyone that the stuff the Romans taught us, destroyed everything they brought and burned the books, so we just lost all of the medical knowledge we had and we took a massive step back into the dark ages, like the filth ridden retards god wanted us to be. More modern times religion is strongly against Stem Cell research which could potentially save millions of lives, so fuck you and fuck religion.

I think it's disgusting how you can think your meaning of life is to please this "God" who clearly doesn't give a fuck about you. How does religion tell you to love each other? The Beatles told me to love each other, not God, not religion. Religion told me to be biased and hate others.

What about that society of Jesus? It was educational.

If we think that way then I can blame atheism. You know, in Soviet Union, people were being enforced to be atheists:DIf you were going to church you were punished, if you were religious, you couldn't go to normal university or finish school with the highest rate.

I don't say my meaning of life is to please god :D I do everything by myself, I am not a chicken,I think also by myself, and even pretty much logically. maybe I seem naive, I just try to defend religion, but I don't study it, i don't see it as a science and that's the weakest point of a religion, that it's just subjective.

[HorrificAttack]

What about that society of Jesus? It was educational.

If we think that way then I can blame atheism. You know, in Soviet Union, people were being enforced to be atheists:DIf you were going to church you were punished, if you were religious, you couldn't go to normal university or finish school with the highest rate.

I don't say my meaning of life is to please god :D I do everything by myself, I am not a chicken,I think also by myself, and even pretty much logically. maybe I seem naive, I just try to defend religion, but I don't study it, i don't see it as a science and that's the weakest point of a religion, that it's just subjective.

What the fuck are you talking about? Way to ignore every single one of my points, you fucking idiot.

That is a terrible point, I am not communist, I have nothing in common with other Atheists. Contrary to religion Atheism isn't a thing it's more of an absence of something, all it means is that I don't belong to a religion and I don't believe in God, not that I am a follower of Stalin and that he and I have the same values. I am not oppressive, so basically it was a shit point that you heard someone else make and tried to use it against me but failed.

Religion tells you that humans are to abide to God's will and do as he says, does it not? There is no interpretation there, those are the rules and if you don't do that you don't get into heaven. Religion is by no means a science, nobody claimed it was, it's a cult.

[HorrificAttack]

The Bible never says to hate others or be biased...

Yes it does.

Also Tnspieler1012, I am by no means a hardcore atheist, I just get pissed off at certain things.

[an angel]

Haha, no it doesn't. You're just making generalizations.

[HorrificAttack]

Haha, no it doesn't. You're just making generalizations.

How can I make generalisations about fucking written scripture?

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

There we go.

If you find a person of a different faith, kill them.

That's just one quote which backs up my point, there are loads of them

[india rubber]

How can I make generalisations about fucking written scripture?

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

There we go.

If you find a person of a different faith, kill them.

That's just one quote which backs up my point, there are loads of them

Best post I've seen here in quite a while.

[prospekthd42]

Best post I've seen here in quite a while.

agreed.

[onute]

What the fuck are you talking about? Way to ignore every single one of my points, you fucking idiot.

That is a terrible point, I am not communist, I have nothing in common with other Atheists. Contrary to religion Atheism isn't a thing it's more of an absence of something, all it means is that I don't belong to a religion and I don't believe in God, not that I am a follower of Stalin and that he and I have the same values. I am not oppressive, so basically it was a shit point that you heard someone else make and tried to use it against me but failed.

Religion tells you that humans are to abide to God's will and do as he says, does it not? There is no interpretation there, those are the rules and if you don't do that you don't get into heaven. Religion is by no means a science, nobody claimed it was, it's a cult.

hahaha no you wrongly understood me, i don't blame you for anything and don't take it personally, i just meant that if religion had something against education, then why atheism not? And as you know it was not atheism who says to do this, it was comunism, so why to blaim religion if we know not religious people were doing that harm in many times.

Nooo, you don't have idea how many acceptions there is, you can not even go to church on sunday if you are doing something valuable. And nun said that! And religion says God doesn't punish, he is merciful and you can always be forgiven for anything.

Oh and about love. Love each other as you love yourself - as you know religion says. And it's a very good idea, when you love each other, live for the world, not only for yourself and here you go - there's the meaning of life!:wink3::D

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

agree also.

[HorrificAttack]

hahaha no you wrongly understood me, i don't blame you for anything and don't take it personally, i just meant that if religion had something against education, then why atheism not? And as you know it was not atheism who says to do this, it was comunism, so why to blaim religion if we know not religious people were doing that harm in many times.

Nooo, you don't have idea how many acceptions there is, you can not even go to church on sunday if you are doing something valuable. And nun said that! And religion says God doesn't punish, he is merciful and you can always have be forgiven for anything.

Oh and about love. Love each other as you love yourself - as you know religion says. And it's a very good idea, when you love each other, live for the world, not only for yourself and here you go - there's the meaning of life!:wink3::D

It's impossible to argue with you because you are so blinded by religion.

[an angel]

How can I make generalisations about fucking written scripture?

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

There we go.

If you find a person of a different faith, kill them.

That's just one quote which backs up my point, there are loads of them

That's in the Old Testament.

[HorrificAttack]

That's in the Old Testament.

And a fucking shit load of the values Christianity still uses are also in the Old Testament, the 10 Commandments are in the Old testament for fucks sake.

You can't write it off on that basis.

[onute]

It's impossible to argue with you because you are so blinded by religion.

hahaha i was just trying to defend religion. :uhoh:

[an angel]

And a fucking shit load of the values Christianity still uses are also in the Old Testament, the 10 Commandments are in the Old testament for fucks sake.

You can't write it off on that basis.

It doesn't matter, we aren't bound any of those laws anymore.

[india rubber]

hahaha i was just trying to defend religion. :uhoh:

Why?

[HorrificAttack]

It doesn't matter, we aren't bound any of those laws anymore.

This is retarded, so the 10 Commandments and anything that was in the Old Testament don't matter? Why is it then that Christianity still abides by the laws and rules it set out in the Old Testament and why is it that for example, Christianity still hates gay people? If the teachings of the Old Testament don't matter then Christianity isn't even following it's own rules properly

[chuck kottke]

The Old Testament (Hebrew bible) has some parts which are gruesome, cruel, and definitely evoking hatred towards others - cloaked in the righteousness of doing 'Gods' will. Those parts I think of as being unenlightened and vengeful towards whole groups, irrespective of their societies' individual thoughts, feelings, or actions.
Here's one passage filled with invective language:
"But the day belongs to the Lord, the Lord Almighty--
a day of vengeance, for vengeance on his foes.
The sword will devour till it is satisfied,
till it has quenched its thirst with blood.."
There are numerous other examples - usually directed against groups other than the Hebrew tribes. But then I'm sure the regions' other civilizations and religions did much the same - it was a world of sparring powers...
I think we are evolving a better understanding of human relations, and in doing so, hopefully lessening wars by addressing the root causes of conflict. If the message is one of peace, I'm all for it! Settle differences not with bloodshed and vengeful thinking, but with civility (international courts, etc.), and by speaking to one-another. Perhaps one good message from the Jesus tales is to "love your enemies" - a truly remarkable thing to say! It's a transformation from the older, more vindictive view of God, towards a more enlightened view.

[onute]

Why?

I don't know.:D I just felt like doing that.

[an angel]

This is retarded, so the 10 Commandments and anything that was in the Old Testament don't matter? Why is it then that Christianity still abides by the laws and rules it set out in the Old Testament and why is it that for example, Christianity still hates gay people? If the teachings of the Old Testament don't matter then Christianity isn't even following it's own rules properly

No, Christians are supposed to follow the moral principles that were shown in the new testament...

edit: but the ten commandments are still very important.

[HorrificAttack]

It's just SO obvious that they are just correcting all the bits that were a bit nasty, how can people not see that? How can people genuinely think God "grew up" and changed, fucking idiots.

[HorrificAttack]

No, Christians are supposed to follow the moral principles that were shown in the new testament...

edit: but the ten commandments are still very important.

And gay people should still be persecuted

YAY HYPOCRISY, WOOOOO

[an angel]

The Old Testament had prophecies about a "messiah," so no, they weren't just "correcting" things.

[HorrificAttack]

The Old Testament had prophecies about a "messiah," so no, they weren't just "correcting" things.

If they change all of the rules then of course they fucking were, seriously, how are you so easily blinded?

[chuck kottke]

And gay people should still be persecuted

YAY HYPOCRISY, WOOOOO
Maybe Jesus was gay? After all, he never had a wife, although there were those references to some gals who were there at his entombment..? Anyhow, it's a social and cultural evolution - as God gave us the brains and wherewithal to figure it all out..;)

[HorrificAttack]

Maybe Jesus was gay? After all, he never had a wife, although there were those references to some gals who were there at his entombment..? Anyhow, it's a social and cultural evolution - as God gave us the brains and wherewithal to figure it all out..;)

Evolution is a fun word, I'm glad you used it, God giving us our brains kinda cancels out Evolution. Evolution is one of the most beautiful and intricate processes I have studied, it's amazing and not as simple as people think it is, so do you say that Evolution didn't happen?

[EmmaLouiseSmyth]

Maybe Jesus was gay? After all, he never had a wife, although there were those references to some gals who were there at his entombment..? Anyhow, it's a social and cultural evolution - as God gave us the brains and wherewithal to figure it all out..;)
But who's to say that god gave them to us. :)


*waves flag for science*

[an angel]

If they change all of the rules then of course they fucking were, seriously, how are you so easily blinded?

I think you know nothing about christianity if you think the whole point was to just "change all the rules."

[ricardo]

I'm actually highly spiritual. But Spirituality is not only linked
to religion.

[ricardo]

But Catholicism hasn't brought only bad stuff. There are glorious architecture treasures and the Divine Comedy. And Vivaldi was a monk, wasn't him?

[india rubber]

psychedelics ftw then :D

[an angel]

But Catholicism hasn't brought only bad stuff. There are glorious architecture treasures and the Divine Comedy. And Vivaldi was a monk, wasn't him?

Haha, the Divine Comedy was the last book we read for one of my classes in 9th grade. Our teacher said we were spending the end of the semester in hell. :awesome:

[chuck kottke]

Evolution is a fun word, I'm glad you used it, God giving us our brains kinda cancels out Evolution. Evolution is one of the most beautiful and intricate processes I have studied, it's amazing and not as simple as people think it is, so do you say that Evolution didn't happen?
I take the larger view - that which we call God, much as what Albert Einstein thought of as God, simply is the Universe. In that sense, the creation of the Universe (the 'big bang') is the creation of God, and ultimately resulted in our existence as well. The fact that human social interactions have come so far to allow us the peaceful cooperation to study things with such detail as we do is simply amazing, and if that's our ultimate purpose, it's a great one! True - it isn't as simple as people think - DNA may have crossed species boundaries from virus vectors, virus DNA itself probably plays a major role in multicellular life's DNA and trait expression, etc. But just the amazing unlikely set of circumstances - that here we are, communicating with computers as we do, studying with great interest the inner workings of life itself, and having collectively used our knowledge and created the capacity to do all this - all from the forces of the universe, the low probability of planet Earth being ideal for life as we know it, the template for life in some form happening (through cells forming from the primordial soup of compounds, or enzymes forming from precursor chemicals, using perhaps clay particles as a template.. And all the necessary steps that have gotten us here - it's quite amazing, and suggests to me that we are one part of the Universe (though perhaps not alone) which has a special purpose of unraveling the mysteries and colonizing space. So, as that goes, we are as much a part of God as we are apart from God.
In our human interactions, there is a sorting and rearranging of what we perceive as real - from the concept that the Earth was the center of the Universe, to the concept we think of today in terms of planets, solar systems, etc.. After all the scientific method - observation, forming ideas idea about how the observations interrelate, forming a hypothesis, testing that hypothesis, etc. is somewhat akin to reflecting on the older teachings and changing them to suit a more enlightened view of things.
Yes, I believe that evolution is a motive force in life on the planet, and it is incredibly beautiful as a process. One thing to consider, however, is that we can and already have begun to transcend evolution. We are the manifestation of life that has the capacity to do what evolution, in our absence cannot do. When and where we should do this is a matter to debate, but we have already done things that defy evolution as the primary force in determining an organism's viability, as well as it's DNA composition.
In other words, I'm trying to view things from a broad perspective, having participated in many narrowly focused fields. The civility between people, and the societies in which we live is a prerequisite to our ability to advance our understanding of the universe. Without purpose, hope, and positive motivation, we are like a ship without a rudder and captain.

[noonsun]

All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.

[ricardo]

Time acually doesn't exist as we see it.

[howyousawtheworld]

I'm a fairly autonomous person who used to go to church when I was young but I don't believe I make right decisions based on my religious experiences as a child, mainly because as a child I never took interest in it. I take interest in religion a lot now, not as in following or believing in a religion but studying a religion and the followers of that religion.

[HorrificAttack]

I stopped reading when you said you were a Christian but believed in the Einsteinien God, that would make you no Christian of any way shape or form.

[Tnspieler1012]

Did chuck say he was a Christian? *checks previous pages* What he's describing seems much more akin to pantheism.

[HorrificAttack]

Did chuck say he was a Christian? *checks previous pages* What he's describing seems much more akin to pantheism.

The way he was arguing with me about Christianity lead me to believe he was a Christian.

I just don't think you can pick and choose which bits you like and don't like about religion, you can't do that with anything else. You can't just go "Nah, I don't believe that Carbon has 4 electrons in it's outer shell and can therefore bond with 4 other atoms" if you said that, you'd be a laughing stock, but you do it with religion and it's all good.

[Tnspieler1012]

Yeah, I think it was Thomas Jefferson who cut out of the Bible the miracles and spiritual elements he didn't believe. There's also an old saying that if you approach religion that way, its not God you believe, but yourself. I'm still coming to terms with that. The thing about the Bible is its a compilation of strictly disconnected writings, starting with Jewish mythology, skipping later to Jesus, followed by pauline writings to various churches. I wouldn't believe the New testament, as a whole, to be God-inspired. Paul's writings for example are his own interpretations of the faith, but imo Jesus is the only real authority in christianity for those who subscribe to it.

At the most I consider myself a classical theist (maybe deist) surrounded by strong Christians. I'm intrigued by Christianity, and learn a lot by studying it, but am not altogether convinced by it.

[ricardo]

The Vatican banned christians from watching New Moon! God Exists!

[an angel]

Haha, why did they do that?

[chuck kottke]

The way he was arguing with me about Christianity lead me to believe he was a Christian.

I just don't think you can pick and choose which bits you like and don't like about religion, you can't do that with anything else. You can't just go "Nah, I don't believe that Carbon has 4 electrons in it's outer shell and can therefore bond with 4 other atoms" if you said that, you'd be a laughing stock, but you do it with religion and it's all good.
I'm cool on Christ - he said some good stuff, did a lot of good (like standing up against corruption, knowing in the end you'll get the ax), and the people that embellished on the story generally did a pretty spiffy job of it. It's a good novel.
I think you can pick and choose! Why? Because it's contradictory anyways, so go with what you like!!:P (YES! Mix and Match your own religion!) A lot of it is just rules of society codified into written form, which changes over time. So, go with what makes sense, and just find passages that you like.;) A bunch of authors already did that for us, so a few more can't hurt..

Carbon, at.wt.12 exactly, having 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons. Two in S, four in P, but SP3 orbital hybridization makes it possible to form 4 bonds with nice bond angles (combining the S & P orbitals), so it's not that simple exactly... Now, if you energize the electrons just the right amount, and cool the atoms, there may be a state where the electrons begin to actually "orbit" the nucleus, instead of the mixed state of properties between orbiting particles and quantum mechanical wave forms.. Of course, occasionally an electron collides with the nucleus, but we won't go there for now.
What I'm saying is that things may be larger than we perceive, in terms of influences and outcomes. Religion may produce at times a serene state of mind, where deeper contemplation is possible, as it focuses the mind and trains us to blot out external interferences. It may produce stability in society, wherein a reflective state of mind finds fertile ground to grow in, and expand our understanding of the known universe. And why does it exist at all? Perhaps through all the twists and turns of our social and cultural evolution, we have advanced through the influences of various religions.. It affects scientific discovery, through ways we often don't contemplate when we are focused narrowly on scientific thought. Wasn't Gregor Mendel a monk? Even as an instrument maker, Galileo held fast to his belief in God ("did not God also give us brains to think with, as well as hearts to feel with and hands to work with?"), and perhaps instrument making too is a sort of religion - rituals, patterns to follow, materials to understand, quiet contemplative time to do it in.
To leap past rational thinking is sometimes necessary as well - quantum mechanics requires a sort of non-intuitive creative thinking, something which comes from the imagination, and from stories (Alice in Wonderland), and further advances in theoretical physics comes as much from the day-dreams of physicists, as from science-fiction novels..
But beyond all that, there is an inherent human need for stability, for compassion, for some framework or guide to begin with. I am not saying that everything in the Bible is the word of God, or that it's all wonderful, but there are many morality tales that do make sense and bring order to chaos, where progress trumps regression. There are some stories that pique the imagination, some requiring our minds to dream past what limits us in the physical world. Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.. where have I heard that before??;)

[Tnspieler1012]

^well...you like Christ. Even monty python and the Beatles thought he was a cool guy, but do you believe he was God incarnate, as he clearly implied? If not, how do you get around that glaring contradiction. Excuse my saying, but you're not making much sense. You can't, as you say, just mix and match different ideologies and pass it off as cogent.

[chuck kottke]

Yeah, I think it was Thomas Jefferson who cut out of the Bible the miracles and spiritual elements he didn't believe. There's also an old saying that if you approach religion that way, its not God you believe, but yourself. I'm still coming to terms with that. The thing about the Bible is its a compilation of strictly disconnected writings, starting with Jewish mythology, skipping later to Jesus, followed by pauline writings to various churches. I wouldn't believe the New testament, as a whole, to be God-inspired. Paul's writings for example are his own interpretations of the faith, but imo Jesus is the only real authority in christianity for those who subscribe to it.
:laugh3:I love it! T. Jefferson did that?! Great!! Why just let the Vatican Council do the snipping and clipping?;) Well then, put faith in your own beliefs, and stay true to yourself - sounds like sage advice!
Yes, the bible is quite the compilation - even the 4 accepted canonical gospels were written many years apart, and about all biblical scholars can say with any degree of possible clarity is that quelle, or Q (those parts common to all 4) have any likelihood of being accurate portrayal of what Jesus might have said or done. Thanks for your viewpoints on the Bible, and on Paul - but perhaps since it is a novel, if he's part of the novel, then what he has to say about Jesus can count to a believer as well.. Hard to say!

At the most I consider myself a classical theist (maybe deist) surrounded by strong Christians. I'm intrigued by Christianity, and learn a lot by studying it, but am not altogether convinced by it.
Hmm.. a classical theist (or deist).. how so?

[an angel]

Some people believe that the people who wrote the new testament made up the things that Jesus said and did...

[Tnspieler1012]

Hmm.. a classical theist (or deist).. how so?

In the sense that I subscribe to aristotle's cosmological argument that the universe had a cause, or prime mover.

I'm also impressed by the teleological stance that, considering the improbably perfect, orderly way the earth is comprised and situated in the galaxy, the unexplained phenomenon of life, alongside the mental consciousness and moral awareness we humans exhibit. I have a tough time believing that this all resulted from mindless accident or coincidence.

But how this 'deity' relates to earth and mankind I cannot say.

[chuck kottke]

^well...you like Christ. Even monty python and the Beatles thought he was a cool guy, but do you believe he was God incarnate, as he clearly implied? If not, how do you get around that glaring contradiction. Excuse my saying, but you're not making much sense. You can't, as you say, just mix and match different ideologies and pass it off as cogent.
God in human form?? No, I can't buy that either. Although, since I believe we are all part of God, then in a sense Jesus was, just as you and I are. He seems to me to be a reformer, a man who sparked deeper thoughts in people's minds, and an actor to bring out a kinder side to Judaism, and someone who was willing to do what is best for his people, despite the certainty of suffering and death. An example to be followed, as a way forward against those who would use fear and intimidation to control others, and a way to break inequities in society.
He was an actor - he was portraying the idealized man, the biblical messiah.

Like the bible is a cogent work anyways!:laugh3: I can mix and match things as I choose - like any good novelist.:artist::P Not making sense?? Perhaps, as we approach the tips of the tree of knowledge, not every direction forward is clear, and we have to experiment with several different ideas in our minds, to imagine which way things could go. After all, the mysteries still abound in nature, as in religion..

[Tnspieler1012]

heh, interesting. So assuming you agree with my assumption that you are a pantheist. How do you respond to the critique that 'if God is everything, than he is nothing.'?

[chuck kottke]

In the sense that I subscribe to aristotle's cosmological argument that the universe had a cause, or prime mover.
Aristotle I am not as familiar with (jogs memory..) Well, what is the driving force in the universe? Good question! Still a matter of debate. Some say it's greater number of states - of possibilities. Others say it's from condensed forms of energy to non-condensed, lower energy states. What came before, and how could time have begun at the same instance as the big bang? What is randomness, and if it doesn't exist, then what does?? Equations too deep for this mind right now...

I'm also impressed by the teleological stance that, considering the improbably perfect, orderly way the earth is comprised and situated in the galaxy, the unexplained phenomenon of life, alongside the mental consciousness and moral awareness we humans exhibit. I have a tough time believing that this all resulted from mindless accident or coincidence.
The infinite improbability drive - at the center of the Heart of Gold. It is truly amazing, isn't it? I agree! Just pure happenstance.;) Sheer luck. ;) Even the lowest probability event occurs on occasion; either that, or there is some reason for it and for us being here. So, I think the purpose is clear - we're on the right path to discovery - it is our destiny.

But how this 'deity' relates to earth and mankind I cannot say.
Perhaps it's the perfect machine - a self-unraveling code of sorts; the ultimate computer (with mice and dice).
The mystery, the thrill of the chase, the joy of discovery - there's the fuel that keeps the human engine going...

[chuck kottke]

heh, interesting. So assuming you agree with my assumption that you are a pantheist. How do you respond to the critique that 'if God is everything, than he is nothing.'?
The pantheon of Gods? I am a constantly evolving conscious being - yes, pantheist perhaps.
If God is everything, then as everything exists, therefore God exists. Perhaps harder to put a finger on, as when God is everything, then everything is God, and one cannot just point to a location, or paint a face to show what God looks like.
What sayest thou to this question?

[Tnspieler1012]

Well I'm not sure what is so significant about God, if God is simply matter. If a table is as much God as a lampshade.

[chuck kottke]

Well I'm not sure what is so significant about God, if God is simply matter. If a table is as much God as a lampshade.
Assuming the Universe is only matter..:inquisitive: The Universe is that, and a whole lot more!!
That table contains atoms that may have been part of the gases exhaled by Aristotle, for instance. And the lampshade - was once interstellar particles, being clumped together into hot hydrogen, condensed by gravity into a sun, exploded, and then re-condensed into planets. Mined (if glass) as sand and light element oxides or carbonates.. Sand that a dinosaur may have tread upon, or calcium carbonate that once was a coral reef, supporting the life that may have evolved eventually into we humans.. The technologies used to make the lamp shade and its parts - a long series of steps that advanced modern living, and gave us everything from velcro fabrics to kevlar vests. All things are connected.
There is always so much more.

[noonsun]

You idiot, it's just matter. Of course it's been reused, that doesn't mean the table or lampshade holds some special significance on its own just because it was born from stars or swallowed by an old giraffe or something. All that you're noticing doesn't have anything to do with a God or spiritual force, it's just how the world works.

[HorrificAttack]

Some people believe that the people who wrote the new testament made up the things that Jesus said and did...

This made me laugh out loud.

[colduser]

I definitely do not think that the new testament is the word of jesus. please.

[MK]

All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.

This is an amazing post.

[Pseudonym]

That

[The Escapist]

Without Christanity, there would be no Christmas.

[Pseudonym]

Santa = Jesus

[The Escapist]

Santa = your dad in a suit

Jesus = Savior of the world.

[Pseudonym]

http://www.photoethnography.com/blog/images/jesus.jpg

=

http://cnonline.net/%7Ejasloper/santaweb.jpg


He's aged well over 2,000 years.

[chuck kottke]

That's not true! Christmas was always celebrated, but instead it was the festival of the rebirth of the sun. But Jesus represents the compassionate model of humanity to such a good extent - perhaps idealized and embellished, but I like Jesus.
Santa is Old Saint Nick, and evolved out of stories and creative thinking from older traditions. Santa represents the generosity, love, and joy dads have for their children without a doubt, but it's interesting how Santa came to be in popular myth.
Simple happiness - it's a time honoring the essence of what it means to be human.
But hey, first comes Thanksgiving!:P (gobble gobble).

[Tnspieler1012]

Quote: Originally Posted by noonsun;3725656
All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.
what does wonder have to do with facts though? Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way.

[HorrificAttack]

http://coldplaying.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3413088&postcount=1

[howyousawtheworld]

All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.

It's culture. You live in USA, I live in the UK. Both countries have laws implemented that were traditionally built upon the rights and wrongs of what Christianity has taught us as we both live in Christian countries. It'd be totally ignorant to completely dismiss the impact of religion in our cultures. We are surrounded by Christian influence, likewise Islamic influences in Muslim states and such.

[chuck kottke]

Quote: Originally Posted by noonsun;3725656
All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing. what does wonder have to do with facts though? Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way.
Step 1 of the scientific method is observation. Without curiosity and interest, there is no step 1. But don't we all have that AHA moment, that moment of amazement and fascination with the natural world?
Probability is interesting here - it suggests that this is an incredibly low probability event; just that realization should make us all pause for a moment, and consider just how amazing it all is.
I tried adding or subtracting a God, and I found that when I change how I perceived God, then one cannot add or subtract the Universe. God=Universe is how I sees it.;)
But in the discourse of human social and cultural evolution, religion has always played a role, and affected how we achieve a mindstate capable of discerning how the universe works. We may be discerning truth, but the cultural forces that got us to this point bear some relevance in the conditions necessary to proceed with scientific discovery.
I am not spiritualizing atheism, I am considering broader matters - matters of social interactions between us, that leads to the ultimate decipher of the cipher that is the Universe in which we live.
(I keep thinking about the Monty Python movie, where in the end they're learning that the Earth was created as the ultimate computer to find the question for the ultimate answer:laugh3:. They may have beaten us to the punch line.:P)
Perhaps we cannot contemplate it all individually, so I am considering our collective weltanschauung.;)

[ricardo]

People often misunderstand the metaphores in the Bible

[chuck kottke]

People often misunderstand the metaphores in the Bible
Metaphor: n. [<Gr. meta, over + pherein, to bear] a figure of speech in which one thing is spoken of as if it were another (Ex: "All the world's a stage").
Well, perhaps this is the case in some instances, Ricardo. So, are you saying that if people are acting on a passage, if they misinterpret it, even though they may be thinking they are doing God's will, are actually not? Who's to say what the correct meaning of a given passage is then?

[noonsun]

what does wonder have to do with facts though?I just said what wonder has to do with facts, I think facts increase wonder at the world because they widen our perspective and raise ever more questions (which we can probably never hope to answer, though we try anyway.) Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way.
I'm expressing my personal opinion which is that the world is more interesting to me without a spiritual God in the mix, I'm not trying to spiritualize atheism itself at all. I'm just telling people to look out at the world and appreciate it without thinking any theology motivating them -- it's quite possible, I do it every day. I don't see how I religion-fied what I said anyway, my whole argument was the world is awesome without religion in the mix.

[noonsun]

It's culture. You live in USA, I live in the UK. Both countries have laws implemented that were traditionally built upon the rights and wrongs of what Christianity has taught us as we both live in Christian countries. It'd be totally ignorant to completely dismiss the impact of religion in our cultures. We are surrounded by Christian influence, likewise Islamic influences in Muslim states and such.

Yeah it sure fucking would, good thing I didn't do anything resembling that huh :thumbsup:

[chuck kottke]

If I understand what the biblical scholars are saying, the bible is the codification and retelling, in written form, of the social and ethical norms of the day (of the day when written, that is to say).
The basis for our laws are ethical arguments, but they represent what is accepted as ethical and fair in society in general - having them explained in the bible does not mean that the bible was the source-code for our laws, but reading and interpreting the bible did have an affect on those laws.
Social evolution reaches a point where what is understood to be fair is then put down on paper, and that becomes the law of the land.

[ricardo]

Metaphor: n. [<Gr. meta, over + pherein, to bear] a figure of speech in which one thing is spoken of as if it were another (Ex: "All the world's a stage").
Well, perhaps this is the case in some instances, Ricardo. So, are you saying that if people are acting on a passage, if they misinterpret it, even though they may be thinking they are doing God's will, are actually not? Who's to say what the correct meaning of a given passage is then?
That's true, everyone interprets passage in a different way, so why does the catholic church impose their own interpetation? I might be wrong about the interpretation, but so might them.

[ricardo]

I just said what wonder has to do with facts, I think facts increase wonder at the world because they widen our perspective and raise ever more questions (which we can probably never hope to answer, though we try anyway.)
I'm expressing my personal opinion which is that the world is more interesting to me without a spiritual God in the mix, I'm not trying to spiritualize atheism itself at all. I'm just telling people to look out at the world and appreciate it without thinking any theology motivating them -- it's quite possible, I do it every day. I don't see how I religion-fied what I said anyway, my whole argument was the world is awesome without religion in the mix.
Funny thing Sara, is that a lot of people after pondering about the matters of life can't but affirm the existence of something superior. That's just my opinion, though.

[The Escapist]

I think lots of you guys and girls take the Bible to fundementally. I'll agree, their is a lot of stuff in the old testament I don't understand but ou have to think about the context in which it is written as well. Think about the people thousands of years ago who wrote it and how they would've seen the world and the different conventions they use.

I posted this on page 6.

People often misunderstand the metaphores in the Bible

[chuck kottke]

Perhaps it's situational to the context of the times when it was written, but I still think there's an awful lot of awful things in the older texts. Too much severity, in my mind. It somewhat sounds like tribal rulers who were trying to beat their tribal members into cowering submission using the fear of God's wrath as a means to do so. Step out of line, and God zaps you with a thunderbolt, and you're just a crispy piece of toast sitting there in the desert.
I much prefer the newer texts to the old - the new ones seem a lot more compassionate and life-affirming to me.

[мaямellata]

http://www.photoethnography.com/blog/images/jesus.jpg

=

SANTA CLAUSE

so true. the days we live in..
sad.

[Tnspieler1012]

well christmas began as and essentially is a pagan holiday. Its only later that Christianity sort of covered it up by projecting the nativity onto it.

[chuck kottke]

That's true, everyone interprets passage in a different way, so why does the catholic church impose their own interpetation? I might be wrong about the interpretation, but so might them.
Ricardo, I think it has to do with how Christianity spread, and how as it spread, it began to have more authors. If there was an original text, it's been lost - so either it was passed on by oral tradition, or the text simply vanished in time. Then, once the accepted Gospels were penned, they were done so in Hebrew, then Aramaic, then Greek, then on to the next language and so forth. Nothing translates perfectly, so there was room for both deciding how to portray a given passage, or simply translation errors occurred. After Christianity became the main religion of the Roman world, the church hierarchy began a process of trying to bring greater unity to the interpretations in the Gospels, as well as limit the number of Gospels to only the 4 most common ones. Hence, the beginning of setting standards as to what is to be believed from each passage, how it is to be interpreted, what gets included, etc. by church authorities - and since the Catholic church was for the most part the original church, the structures thus created to interpret and set standards exist to this day.
I might have gotten that a bit muddled, but generally I think that's why. As for interpretation, I think the best would be to either learn ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, and go back to the original documents (a daunting task), or listen to some biblical scholars, and get their opinions on interpreting biblical passages. Some things vary, and it might we worth the time to do so.

[мaямellata]

@Tnspieler1012
oh really? how so..
i'm curious to know, cuz i always thought christmas (Old English Crīstes mæsse - Mass of Christ)
started with the birth of christ..

no sarcasm btw, i really want to know.

[Tnspieler1012]

I'm aware of the breakdown, and was actually a bit forward in saying that (i.e. wrong). I was thinking more in terms of traditions like the christmas tree and the false notion that jesus was born on a snowy december with the magi arriving at the same day, as depicted in nativity scenes. my bad.

[an angel]

Actually, I learned that it was a pagan holiday celebrating the birth or return of the sun, and then the Christians came and made it into their own holiday...

[мaямellata]

oh i see.
yeah, i just think that that whole idea is completely wrong too, the snow etc..
but i think all that was added to it just so the holiday could be more interesting to pegans i think..
i don't think anybody really know the exact date of his real birth.

[Tnspieler1012]

its estimated to be around late spring, early summer by what I've heard.

[The Escapist]

does it really matter though? Its the message thats really important.

[мaямellata]

does it really matter though? Its the message thats really important.
i agree 100%
i just think that the message lately hasn't really come across,
it's hidden behind white bearded men, decorations, food food food, presents, parties & 100 other things.
not that the people that don't believe have to celebrate the birth of christ,
but that if they really don't care for it why take part in the first place.

[howyousawtheworld]

noonsun clearly hasn't a fucking clue about the religious side of the argument.

[MileyJonasfan2562]

what was this thread about again?

im a buddhist.. we all are in Niun

[howyousawtheworld]

Miley and jonas fan? Please tell me you're joking!

[noonsun]

noonsun clearly hasn't a fucking clue about the religious side of the argument.

Which argument? There are a couple going on here in case you haven't noticed.

[Cobalt]

No, no, no, and no. The Bible is contradictory, and following it rigidly is not what being a Christian/Catholic/whatever is about anyway. It is not always doing the right thing morally, even if it is doing the right thing religiously.

However, all this arguing is crumbled and smashed to pieces when we add in the subject of human nature. Because it's our nature to take, to behave like uncivilized animals, but this is also bringing in a new argument entirely. It's a complicated question you ask... the only answer is personal opinion, really.

Of course, all of this makes me a bad Catholic, but to hell with that.

[Cobalt]

Also I feel bad, this is a great thread but due to it's questionable nature against religion you're going to get some close-minded idiots who think their opinion is absolutely right and everyone else saying otherwise is wrong ranting and raving in here.

Would any sort of god (who, in fact, according to all religions, wants humans to thrive and live peaceful lives) want the Crusades?

SATAAAAAAN

[Electric.Candy]

No. But we can't say those who do not follow God aren't doing the right thing.